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I wish it was easier to talk about terminations (apologies if upsetting)

10 replies

Thurlow · 07/09/2014 13:06

It feels like it is one of the great taboos and I don't dare talk about it IRL.

It's playing on my mind as I had a termination just under a year ago, so newborn babies are a bit of a touchy spot at the moment.

I am comfortable that we made the right decision but as a 30-something mum in a long term relationship, I know it is not a common choice nor it is one that many people might even understand or approve of.

But knowing it was the right decision doesn't mean I have completely forgotten about it or that I don't ever want to talk about it. I had the counseling that was offered, I am fine with my choice - but it's still there.

But I feel like I can't talk about. Sadly, many of my friends are going through problems TTCing right now, including some very, very tragic experiences. I know the most inappropriate thing I could ever say to them would be to tell them I terminated a potentially healthy baby.

99.9% of the time it is no problem but every now and again, people ask me when we might think about having another DC, or I feel I am in a conversation where I am essentially lying and dancing around the subject. I nearly mentioned it completely by accident to a very good friend the other day, a friend who would probably be very upset if she heard about it.

Why does it feel like such an awful taboo? Selfishly, why do I feel like I have to keep this secret from people? I feel like even those who wouldn't be personally hurt by the decision would probably be 'disappointed' that I made that decision, or perhaps think less of me.

It's even taken me a while to be open about this under my usual username. How bad is that?

I might be sensitive about this at the moment, but sometimes it feels as though "you made that decision, you live with it".

Is it just me? Does anyone else understand?

(Sorry this is a bit waffly...)

KateSMumsnet · 08/09/2014 17:45

Hullo everyone,

Thank you to those who brought this thread to our attention, and Flowers to everyone who has posted and shared their thoughts and experiences so far.

We completely understand people's need for a secure, safe space to talk about termination. However, we're afraid that we don't think Mumsnet is able to be this place. We feel that in order to have an effective and, most importantly, safe forum for women to talk about termination, it would need to be carefully monitored and maintained. We have a policy of post moderation, which wouldn't be appropriate for this type of board.

We feel that we would be doing the women who used our forum a huge disservice if we attempted to create a designated area to discuss termination, but were unable deliver on the promise of a totally secure and safe space.

We're also conscious of the fact that creating a talk board purely for talk about termination would be in effect creating a big red target for trolls attracted to this subject, which is of course the exact opposite of what we'd want. We do have a topic for people to discuss antenatal choices, which includes abortion www.mumsnet.com/Talk/antenatal_tests_choices. We've found the title is anodyne enough to avoid too many people with an agenda flocking to it.

Of course, we will follow the thread with interest and if there's a strong demand we will have a think about what we might be able to do. Flowers

KateSMumsnet · 09/09/2014 17:00

Thank you for all your feedback - we'll be sure to digest it and have a think about the issues you've raised. Apologies in advance for a rather mammoth post.

First off, we need to clear something up: we absolutely think that Mumsnet is a place where women can (and indeed do) talk about their experiences of terminations, or about choices they need to make that may involve termination.

We didn't, at all, mean to suggest in our previous post that women shouldn't post on Mumsnet about abortion. This really, really couldn't be further from our point of view. It's a vital and important topic and we absolutely embrace MNers using the boards to discuss it, in any form.

One MNer had contacted us off-board about the possibility of setting up a new talk topic where MNers could discuss their personal abortion choices, and had mooted the idea of this topic being pro-actively modded, or otherwise 'protected'. Some sentences in our previous post on this thread were Blush cribbed from our reply to her, and so conflated two slightly different issues. In hindsight, we can see why saying "we're afraid that we don't think Mumsnet is able to be this place", has given the wrong idea, and we apologise for this (that'll teach us not to be lazy and copy and paste).

Just to explain our thinking a bit further: the reasoning behind our reluctance to introduce a specific 'Abortion' or 'Termination' topic is that, realistically, it would be an absolute internet-wide magnet for trolls, inflammatory single-issue posters, and bunfights. While we take on board that some of you don't think it's ideal, the beauty of our 'Antenatal tests and choices' topic is that it has a usefully anodyne title, and is very rarely targeted by trolls or inflammatory posters - meaning that (in our experience) women who post there tend to get the thoughtful support that they're looking for.

One possible solution is to change its title to 'Pregnancy: choices and tests' - would that work?

"Question, MNHQ: theoretically, if there was a 'bus'-style long-running thread within Antenatal Tests and Choices specifically for termination support and chat, would you be willing to delete inflammatory/politicised/religious posts which appeared on it which were not in contravention, technically, of the Talk Guidelines but were inappropriate, insensitive and/or fighty? There's precedent for this in the recent 'please report gratuitous aggressiveness on AIBU campaign."

Thank you for suggesting this AdamsLambsBreath. A long running support thread sounds like a grand idea and you're more than welcome to start one, wherever you would like.

Obviously we can't say for definite what we would and wouldn't delete til we see it: in the end, it all comes down to whether we think something breaks Talk Guidelines. We've always resisted implementing special rules for individual threads and individual topics; there are, of course, an awful lot of very sensitive and difficult topic areas on MN, and our aim is apply our rules equally to all of them. As with all personal or potentially difficult topics, we'd like to see threads concerning abortion being thoughtful, humane and mindful of the individual circumstances of the poster concerned. And as ever, we will always take a look at any posts that you think are deliberately inflammatory, abusive or just plain mean.

If it appears that someone has signed up to Mumsnet purely to pursue a particular agenda, and we can see that they are irritating or upsetting a lot of MNers, we are always happy to step in. Similarly, we're always happy to look and see whether someone seems to be deliberately inflaming, or refusing (consistently) to engage with the debate in hand.

With these things, it's always a question of context and judgement - what one person might consider inflammatory, another might consider a valid opinion. But we are always happy to take a look.

All that said (SORRY that this is so long!) do please keep feeding back and let us know if you think we're getting it all wrong. (Or even just a little bit wrong, or the usual amount of wrong Grin).

Thanks

KateSMumsnet · 09/09/2014 17:36

@LurcioAgain

Lab - big hug and good luck for tomorrow.

I have never had an abortion - but I am clued up enough to know that that's luck, because contraceptives sometimes fail. I have always been pro-choice, and pregnancy made me more so - it's hard enough with a child you know you have chosen to have and can support, and I would not wish any woman to have to go through that if they did not feel in the right place in their lives to have a child.

And yes to the idea of a supportive section of mumsnet where people trolling could be deleted.

Just to be clear Lurcio - trolling is against our talk guidelines, and if it's reported to us, we will always delete it.

KateSMumsnet · 09/09/2014 17:55

@AdamLambsbreath

'The Special Needs topic is managed separately, on an opt-in basis' (message in Customise)

This was what confused me.

I thought this meant it was more of a hidden/protected area. It seems that for it to appear in Active Convos you need to customise your settings to opt in.

What does 'managed separately' mean?

Threads started within the SN topic don't appear in Active, unless, as you say, you go into customise and opt in to see them.

This is an historic thing, implemented when MN was much smaller. It was something asked for by those who use the SN topic, to avoid the confusion caused when someone replied to an OP without having clocked it was in the SN topic (e.g if an OP referred to their 6 year old DS being in nappies)

When it became apparent that there were other reasons poster's wouldn't want their threads appearing in Active, Off The Beaten Track was introduced.

KateSMumsnet · 10/09/2014 10:03

Morning everyone,

Thank you again for all your feedback on this - we do hear your concerns Flowers As you might have seen, today we're hosting a debate on the Scottish referendum, so lots of the senior MNHQ bods are in Scotland at the moment.

We want to be able to pause and give the important issues raised on this thread our full attention, to be sure that we get it right. So we'll get back to you fully on this in a couple of days.

Please do keep posting your thoughts and suggestions, as we really value your opinions on this Flowers

RowanMumsnet · 11/09/2014 17:13

Hello

Very sorry for the hiatus while lots of people were absent for the Scottish referendum webchat.

First off, to reiterate: we absolutely agree that abortion is a massively important topic, that MNers should feel absolutely free to post about it, and that it's a shame if anyone is being put off from doing so because they're not sure where to do it.

We can also see, on reflection, that people might prefer not to use Antenatal Tests and Choices for this, as threads in there tend to be related to worrying results from antenatal tests, which (of course) isn't the only reason women consider terminating a pregnancy.

So how about we rename Antenatal Tests and Choices 'Antenatal tests', and add a new topic for 'Pregnancy choices'?

We could give this a go, have a look at year-end to see whether it's being well-used, and review the situation then.

We appreciate that not everyone will agree with 'termination' and/or 'abortion' not appearing in the topic title - please bear with us while we explain our reasoning.

Mumsnet is a highly indexed site in Google, which means that pages and topics on Mumsnet tend to shoot to the top of search rankings fairly quickly. We anticipate that once a dedicated Mumsnet topic area for 'abortion' starts appearing highly in Google search results, we would experience a sustained and ongoing invasion from people determined to post with an anti-abortion agenda - which would lead to the least useful outcome of all, ie women looking for thoughtful support and instead getting soapbox responses from single-issue posters who have no investment in MN at all.

Our feeling at the moment is that naming the topic with a mind to that isn't being 'defeated' by trolls - it's choosing the course that's most likely to result in a supportive and constructive topic, which (we think) is what success would look like.

But as ever, let us know what you think.

Thanks
MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 12/09/2014 10:33

We're very happy that everyone's happy Flowers. Give us a couple of days and we'll have it set up for you. Happy to move this thread into it then, and if you want to report other threads that you think might be useful there (via the report button) we'll ask the OPs if they're OK with that.

RowanMumsnet · 17/09/2014 15:19

Hello all

Here you go.

We'll move this thread there now, and do let us know about any threads you think might be better in there - we'll contact the OPs to see if they would like them to be moved.

Thanks

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 17/09/2014 17:12

Waffle?? Grin

Topic disclaimers are usually for legal things (eg in health, to say 'Not everyone on MN necessarily has medical degree and you really maybe out to check in with a RL health professional if you're worried about anything'). But we could maybe add something to say - this is a topic for people to discuss their personal experiences or dilemmas; if your thread is a more general debate about the ethics of termination, it may be better off in another topic?

We're reluctant to specify that people must post supportively. Supportiveness is something that we value across the whole of MN and we don't want to make it seem as though it's only valued in specific topics. Plus, of course, while we will be happy to deal with anyone posting here in an inflammatory or mean way (ie in ways that break our existing Guidelines), and are happy to gently guide people away from kneejerk soapbox responses, that doesn't mean we'll necessarily delete posts that probe the wider debate about abortion.

RowanMumsnet · 18/09/2014 14:14

Group hug! Thanks very much all; we're really happy that you're happy.

I wish it was easier to talk about terminations (apologies if upsetting)
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