Rise of fascism... what, if anything, can decent people do?

[MrsBennetsPoorNerves]

Trump's victory is obviously alarming for many of us, but we've seen the rise of the far right in lots of places across Europe to a greater or lesser extent as well. History teaches us that bad things happen when decent people stand by and do nothing . So what, if anything, should those of us who are concerned about the rise of fascism be doing now?

Please note: if you're a Trump fan and don't agree that he is a fascist, this is not the thread to debate that. There are plenty of other threads where we can discuss that point, but this one is aimed at those who already accept that premise. Obviously, I can't stop you posting here, as it's an open forum and I don't get to police it, but I won't be engaging with any posts from Trump apologists on this thread because I don't want irrelevant debate to derail the main discussion.

You pay it a lot of time given that it doesn't interest you.

@Zonder still going why..

Not sure what that little sentence even means. But you're still engaged, whatever.

@zonder 🤦‍♀️

If maybe you had used punctuation or something it might have made sense, but don't worry about it @EasternStandard it doesn't matter.

@Zonder Don't waste your time..... i ve been there....

You're so right @Alexandra2001

Agree don't really not worth it. I'm happy with that.

So many things going on in the world, focus on others.

Seriously? Neither Gaza or the West Bank has had a general election for nearly 20 years.

Neither Fatah and Hamas are keen for a vote on anything more than local elections.

So no general elections for decades and yet posters somehow think they "know" exactly what the Palestinian people would vote for?

Well the numerous quality surveys that we’ve already discussed indicate they would vote for Sharia law.

And I think we’ve reached our natural conclusion - you value ‘self determination’ more than you do human rights, and I’m the reverse.

I just find it interesting that you’ve started a thread concerned about the rise of fascism in one foreign country, while supporting the right of another to self govern under what would be Sharia law and likely a puppet government. It doesn’t make sense to me, but it’s your right to have conflicting opinions if you wish so I will leave it there.

I don’t see a rise in fascism. I do see a rise in parties who are more right wing than Centre right. But that does not make them fascists.

No, I think self determination is a human right.

I find your opinions every bit as conflicting as you find mine. How can you even begin to talk about believing in human rights when you are arguing against basic freedoms?

I don’t think it’s reached outright fascism yet but what I am seeing is a lot of fascist imagery and creeping ideas - nazi salutes, mutters about ditching the two term rule so Trump can indefinitely govern, an awful lot of propaganda. It’s been two months, what do you think it’ll be like in two years?

If the UK Parliament democratically voted tomorrow to punish infidelity by public flogging, would you ‘sanguinely’ accept this as a democratic right? Or if they decided to make homosexuality a crime? Would you actively support it saying it was only fair and just that they can pass whatever law they see fit?

You literally get a choice between Hamas or Fatah.

There are no other parties, the men with the guns ensure that.

The political centre is constantly moving, the centre right in the 80s gave us Thatcher Major, Clarke & Heseltine ... in the 2010s Clarke Major and Heseltine were all considered far to much to the left and either resigned from the Tory party or were kicked out....

People like Badenoch wouldn't have allowed anywhere near Govt in the 80s.

Conversely, Starmer would have fitted in well inside a Major Govt.

Her speech at the ARC conference was as far right as you could get.

How much further will the Tories and Reform travel before they become "Fascist's"? its not far.

What a stupid question.

Obviously I wouldn't be arguing in favour of that. But I also wouldn't extrapolate from that to say that British people obviously can't be trusted to choose their politicians wisely and that we should therefore be ruled by a foreign power instead.

There is no Palestinian state at the moment. It is hardly surprising that the occupied territories as they are right now allow extreme factions to flourish. As part of the process of implementing a two-state solution, there would clearly need to be some investment in state-building to allow a true democracy to flourish.

What would you do if these laws were passed? Nothing? Or would you be out in the streets protesting and saying somebody should intervene? Given this very thread I would expect the latter?

I accept each country has democratic rights to self govern, but only to a certain degree, and not to the extent that they can brutalise their own citizens. That’s why we have the international criminal court, sanctions etc - because while we accept each state should govern their own affairs, that doesn’t mean they can enact regimes or acts that are heinous as the rest of the world sits idly by. Unless you would like to do away with those as well, and propose that no country is ever internationally accountable for its actions?

What about the unoccupied comparable countries which have had huge investment? Such as Afghanistan? Has their democracy flourished? We trained their army and invested billions of pounds into creating a safe and democratic state. What happened?

Both Palestinian enclaves are one party states. Fatah (WB) or Hamas (G) got voted in then became full dicatorships.

You are never going to get a LibDem party under those conditions, they will get shot to pieces the moment they get traction as they would be a threat to the stasus quo. Then add in a very traumatised population who have lost countless loved ones and their homes in their struggle which means they would be very unlikely to vote for anything like a liberal leadership.

Oddly Palestine (both bits) really might benefit from externally imposed technocratic rule (ie the UN or similar).

Do the Nazi salutes?
Also even Le Pen is distancing herself from the AfD…

I would of course be out protesting. That's how democracy and self determination work. I wouldn't be looking for a foreign power to intervene and take over our government, though. I would be looking to the power of the collective, and to my fellow citizens to join me in standing up for what is right.

In relation to your second point, I absolutely agree with you on this, and in many cases, I think that the international community needs to do more to intervene in such situations, not less. But that's a separate issue, and I see no reason to deny the Palestinians their basic right to self govern simply because the international community has failed to intervene in the likes of Afghanistan or Russia etc. I would expect an independent Palestine to be subject to international law like any other country, and I would like to see international law implemented more effectively.

since Those things weren’t in the manifesto, and there’s no sudden reason to change from that, I’d argue it was an authoritarian take over of a democratic government.