Rise of fascism... what, if anything, can decent people do?

[MrsBennetsPoorNerves]

Trump's victory is obviously alarming for many of us, but we've seen the rise of the far right in lots of places across Europe to a greater or lesser extent as well. History teaches us that bad things happen when decent people stand by and do nothing . So what, if anything, should those of us who are concerned about the rise of fascism be doing now?

Please note: if you're a Trump fan and don't agree that he is a fascist, this is not the thread to debate that. There are plenty of other threads where we can discuss that point, but this one is aimed at those who already accept that premise. Obviously, I can't stop you posting here, as it's an open forum and I don't get to police it, but I won't be engaging with any posts from Trump apologists on this thread because I don't want irrelevant debate to derail the main discussion.

Yes, I've definitely noticed this tendency - if right wing people vote for a fascist candidate, it's all the fault of the left. I think a lot of people on the left buy into this as well...I think it gives them a greater sense of being in control of events than they actually are.

The anger thing is interesting and not something I have given much thought to. I can see the logic and will reflect on this more.

I think this is a shift that will happen due to increased movement of people, and projected to rise.

It's happening across the world and I don't think any real discussion can take place without acknowledging that.

The Biden administration facilitated and encouraged apartheid and genocide in Gaza.

If you're concerned about Fascism you need to count you're blessings that the Democrats are out.

You think Trump won't do worse for Palestinians?

I am not sure what the ordinary person can do other than continue to call out language or thoughts that fuel hate. Even this plays into their hands though as lots now think there is a “woke” blob full of lefty liberals trying to police their mindset. They can’t see their mindset is already being policed by algorithms and indoctrination.

You can lean towards the right for economic reasons though. History tells us high inflation and failure to improve living standards for ordinary people leads to a rise in extremism. I can understand why people vote for the likes of Trump when under the current system they can’t pay their mortgages or afford petrol. Once again, I’m not sure what ordinary people can do about this?

I know this sounds extreme, but we need to fight the idea that capitalism (at least in this Milton-Friedman-the-market-will-sort-everything-out form) is the only possible economic model. It's broken. We're not badly off so it may sound like turkeys voting for Christmas but we don't necessarily need a revolution, we do need to start believing a world without billionaires and where huge corporations actually pay a fair sum towards society out of their profits (and this can be done while still leaving them with plenty of profit). Normal people are getting less and less of the pie because it's all going to businesses with huge profits and to those who already have more than they can ever possibly spend. People didn't care when it's the poorest but now even relatively wealthy middle classes are looking at their kids facing a worse quality of life, never owning a home, never earning enough to enjoy life, just keeping their heads above water as basic living costs suck up most of their salaries.

Everyone's standard of living is going to keep going down and down unless something changes fundamentally, and that downwards slide is always going to cause people to shift to the far right, which is exactly what we'll get at the next election.

We need to also stop giving in to these 'fear' narratives - oooh, it's the fake benefits claimants that are costing us, ooh it's the immigrants, and they're criminals too. All a distraction tactic to stop us recognising just have unequal things have become because of the richest taking everything and not having being expected to give anything back to people the made them rich.

Oh dear.. my first deletion! someone's not a Dylan fan, or just doesn't like being ribbed!

Interesting points about free speech and where the parameters lie. A lot of hate speech goes unchallenged, especially on social media. Of course, it doesn't help that Twitter is owned by Elon Musk - I've stopped using it now but a lot of people are still on there.

I do agree that economic inequalities need to be tackled properly, but of course, those on the far right will do everything they possibly can to maintain those inequalities because that's what they use to manipulate their base. The Labour Party has a genuine opportunity to do something with their huge majority in the commons, so I hope that they don't squander it. I guess we all need to be engaging with our MPs (where it's worth the effort) to encourage them to think seriously about these issues.

I find a great deal that I've learned on the Relationship boards surprisingly useful.

For example, I've noticed a trend in political messaging to use the same techniques as a man having an affair, who tells his wife he's not spending time with her because she's doing something wrong: she's too fat, she gave him the wrong birthday card, she said the wrong thing to his mother, etc etc.

It isn't true. It's being said for the same reasons the man having the affair says it:
To divert attention from what's really going on.
To make her question herself, not him.
To create excuses in his mind for his behaviour.

It's gaslighting and abusive, and causes huge harm to the target – who wears themselves out looking for their own faults and doubting themselves – trying to lose weight, apologise for the birthday card, do better next time...

And all for nothing. These weren't things they were doing "wrong" in the first place.

MN has taught me the important phrase: "trying to please a person who is determined not to be pleased."

That doesn't mean the wife being cheated on doesn't have faults. But the man is saying these things because he thinks they will help him manipulate her, not because they're true.

Constructive reflection is very difficult to achieve when one isn't surrounded by critical friends but by manipulators. It's still important to have reflection; but not to take all criticism at face value.

If you ignore the cause tackling a symptom like free speech will just tend towards authoritarianism

Look to the cause.

If people can't discuss it, voters will show at the ballot box how they feel

What's hate speech to you op?

I'm don't feel like a very robust political analyst here so open to be corrected but I think it's possibly fairly simple in the sense that the far right / fascism arises out of 2 main elements:

• Economic hardship / decline of some kind, particularly where this results in unemployment, underemployment or a lack of rewarding employment particularly for men.

• Disengagement with politics / democracy or a feeling of having been disenfranchised because they are not directly exposed to the machinery of politics, they feel powerless

I think the mistake of the left is to make this about values - because values are often so important to people on the "left" (not without good reason) they assume that is true for everyone, or that people must be persuaded to share their values. But people voting for fascism, I believe, essentially aren't voting on a basis of values. Even the idea that they are, but their values are "different" and mustn't be dismissed / patronised I think are mostly barking up the wrong tree.

I think this is not about thinking but rather about feeling - those feelings are angry and powerless. Feelings which are validated by the big mean guy that says your anger is GOOD and I will make YOU powerful.

The left / democratic / intellectuals have never been able to deliver this message, and I don't see how they can. It's very persuasive / alluring but also divisive, toxic and fundamentally in opposition to leftist/ democratic values.

So the alternative is to make people feel less angry, less divided and more engaged with democracy so that the alluring message has less power. This is difficult when the very systems that exist within and around fascism intentionally mislead, stoke division and anger, and keep people down. Fascism literally takes away the people's power whilst selling them on the idea it is going to make them powerful. Even in ways that don't relate to the individual, eg fascism is always or almost always accompanied by nationalism "make America great (eg powerful) again".

I think if most of the people who voted for Trump, had a rewarding employment, sense of a meaningful role within their community, and could see democracy in action on their behalf on some level that would go a great way to undoing the power of fascism's false promises. More than education, much more than appeals to higher values. There's a reason the left are often called "elites" and privileged. It's because often they are and that's why they don't need the hope fascism offers (and may be more inured to its effects by the privilege of education).

So basically this is getting a bit rambling but if the left wants to advance it's values, it first has to be electable. I think for that the very first goal has to be JOBS, always. Liberal democracies can protect themselves by ensuring everyone (and most especially unskilled men) has a good job and that meaningful work pays. In the wake of environmental destruction challenging the endless growth model of capitalism (which is the heart of the current crisis and why all modern fascist movements who rely on a vote are climate change denialists), this will require massive public investment in green / renewable industries and jobs.

I think the second thing is to give people more of a voice. Let the people speak / debate publicly, engage publicly with their democracy instead of in private echo chambers of rage online. I think for the left / progressives we have to move away from identity politics and the right-on politics of "no debate". I think there also need to be democratic reforms that inject more of a sense of participation and representation - however I'm not entirely sure what these should be. The Brexit referendum was an example of how NOT to do this - because of the ensuing damage to the economy.

I know that major structural change in politics would be hard (especially with well funded vested interests actively opposing this) but I can see the current systems in both UK and US for example are leading to most people (on both sides of the political spectrum) feeling rather hopeless, uninterested and cynical - whilst politicians are forced by the system to court a tiny percentage of swing voters.

The good thing about eg Trump voters is that they desperately want to be heard and to make a difference. They want to be part of something. Imagine the power of that if it was channeled into something good.

I kind of think these things have a momentum of their own. There are just so many moving parts - the economy, migration, wars, climate change, social media algorithms, different ideologies. Nobody is steering the ship. We need better leaders but maybe we get the leadership we deserve. Sorry, not very helpful. I don't think things are hopeless but these things seem to be cyclical and as much as we can 'learn the lessons of history', human nature doesn't really change. There's such a sense of instability, I think people are reacting to that the same way they always have.

Yeah, I also wondered that, but I am not sure if they will be brave enough to do that. The received wisdom seems to be that we need to align ourselves with the US no matter what. Whether that remains tenable or not will depend on just how far Trump decides to go, I suppose.

I share your concerns OP but you doubtless won't believe me.
What you seem to be calling the far right (though god knows as you won't define) are brexiteers maybe, people who love Tommy Robinson perhaps and Marine le pen et al in Europe?
Well what we have to do is fucking engage with them. Stop calling them thick racist knuckle draggers. These people who are almost always the poorest and most disadvantaged in societies should be stalwarts of the left, but our self indulgent purity spirals, identity politics and cliques have driven them away.
So we need to do what makes their lives better and we find that out by listening to them.
If they say they want us to focus on reducing immigration because it undermines the job market, thats what we do. Or we come up with a bloody good reason why we can't do it and explain it. What we don't do is demonise then as far right nutters.
If they say they don't want to sponsor foreign aid or hear us wittering about trans issues, then stfu and do something that improves their lives.
And we never forget that we who even have time to think about political issues let alone those of us who are properly involved are incredibly privileged because of our intellect our social currency and the circles we find ourselves in. Lots of people, loads, are living day to day in shit jobs or in HMOs or prison, disabled, unemployed, frightened to leave their homes and have limited time for pretentious gits like us.

Op you don't want a debate about the definition of fascism but you clearly don't know what fascism is. Tbh I don't want a debate about the definition either because I actually know what the f&@k I am talking about.

People who think Trump/Farage/Reform are great. People who are definitely NOT STUPID OR RACIST.

So basically, it’s a thread where you have to agree or not post. What’s the point🤣

So articulate.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

Interesting points about free speech and where the parameters lie. A lot of hate speech goes unchallenged, especially on social media. Of course, it doesn't help that Twitter is owned by Elon Musk - I've stopped using it now but a lot of people are still on there.

I'm not talking about social media, I'm talking about the far right parties in Europe such as Germany and Austria who are openly calling for an ethnostate and mass remigration programmes.

In Germany the AfD includes Nazi sympathisers and has been designated an extremist organisation and in Austria, the Freedom Party was founded by SS members who don't hide their far right views.

However, they are doing very well on social media and are drawing in young people who don't recognise their harmful rhetoric.

Like Trump they are isolationist and that is very damaging.

I thought Europe was going right wing. So the UK can remain a little leftie paradise until Stammer and his cronies get booted out.

I've also been deeply concerned by what's happening here and abroad - the rise of far right ideology and the demonisation of certain groups of people.
People don't see themselves as far right, only concerned citizens standing up for their country. I believe they have been manipulated by the right wing media, politicians, and social media agitators.
One thing I've started doing is going to counter protests whenever there's a far right protest. You can follow Stand Up to Racism (SUTR) on social media and they tell you about all the events that are happening in your area. I used to think protests were pointless, but I've recently seen the power of numbers. I've seen large groups of far right protesters walk away defeated when they were outnumbered by antiracism protesters. It really does send a powerful message to them that they aren't the majority, that we don't agree with them, that we won't tolerate them.
SUTR also holds meetings where they discuss the issues at hand and look at ways to address them. It's not all about counter protesting, it's also about engagement and reaching out.

I think passing over anything that's not clamp down on free speech etc is why various groups will keep being shocked by results

We need to abandon liberalism. Liberals always crack under pressure. Liberalism can't tackle fascism. To tackle fascism you have to abandon the idea that all views are valid. Some views are wrong. Fascism, eg, is wrong.

Fascisim is alive and well I agree.

But it might shock you to learn that it’s actually from the far Left. Only you can’t see it - because you ARE it.

I’ve never known a time when such an authoritarian and dictatorship agenda was up on us. It’s scary