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Original poster

to wonder how Catholics can reconcile their faith with the Vatican's reaction to Ireland's abuse scandal?

283 replies

ChristinedePizan · 25/07/2011 21:48

Recalling their envoy to Ireland can only be seen as an a tacit acceptance of paedophilia surely? Rape and torture of children is okay obviously as long as its carried out by men of the cloth Hmm

OP posts:
GentlemanGin · 29/07/2011 17:41

Yeah, I've got to say, obedience to the Pope, I always assumed that was a requisite. Surely that's how the C of E came about when Henry VIII got sick of having Papal superiority.

DioneTheDiabolist · 29/07/2011 17:44

But why is that a problem for you?

Is it because it makes it difficult for you to blame all Catholics for the actions of some Catholics?

IMO, assigning collective guilt is an immature, lazy, bigotted person's way of thinking.

GentlemanGin · 29/07/2011 17:46

I'd assign collective guilt to the German population 1939 -45. I don't think it's bigoted.

DioneTheDiabolist · 29/07/2011 17:50

GentlemanGin despite what some people think, the Catholic church has change a little bit since the 1500's.

DioneTheDiabolist · 29/07/2011 17:53

Would you accept collective guilt for the current wars in Iraq and Afganistan?

GentlemanGin · 29/07/2011 18:06

'Would you accept collective guilt for the current wars in Iraq and Afganistan?'

No I actively protested against them both.

GentlemanGin · 29/07/2011 18:10

'GentlemanGin despite what some people think, the Catholic church has change a little bit since the 1500's.'

You see this confuses me. Surely if you are in touch with God, his son has walked the Earth to tell everyone how things are and you have a Holy book, how can it change ? I mean if it wasn't correct in 1500 why would it be correct now ?

DioneTheDiabolist · 29/07/2011 18:23

It didn't stop them though and when we were given the opportunity to remove the government that brought us to war, we didn't. I don't think that the German population 39-45 were even given this opportunity, yet you assign collective guilt to them all? My uncle is German, when he told me that there were people who believed him guilty of WWII, I thought he was talking about a few crackpots.

DioneTheDiabolist · 29/07/2011 18:29

So GentlemanGin, given that you protested those wars yet your government failed to heed you, and indeed were re-elected numerous times, did you move country and change nationality?

GentlemanGin · 29/07/2011 20:13

Dione. I think there is a bit of a difference between the wars in the middle east and what happened in Germany and Europe where they basically wiped out the entire Jewish population after persecuting them for years. I've seen some if the concentration camps and it's death on an industrial scale. And largely the German population bought into Hitlers retoric and madness .Clearly there were individual who objected to what was happening, who were either shot or sent to death camps.

My dd is half German and I know that the Germans DID feel a collective guilt.

And I can't resit touching on the Popes complete inactivity and lack of condemnation at the time.

DioneTheDiabolist · 29/07/2011 21:44

Why do you consider your responsibility for the wars in the ME any less than that of a German during WWII? After all, you live in a democratic country where the government could be changed, or you yourself could stand in opposition to the government without fear of being shipped off to a labour camp or killed. You could do a lot more about it than your average 1930s German could.

BTW, that's not to say that I think that you should assume guilt about the wars, I certainly don't. I don't believe that we should feel guilt about the misdeeds of others. That's why I don't feel guilty about:
Clerical abuse of children,
Wars in Afganistan and Iraq,
Slavery,
Imperialism,
The Inquisition,
Witch hunts,
IRA bombing campaigns
or any other stuff that people have tried to assign collective guilt to me about in the course of my life that I didn't do. Nor do I blame others for things that they didn't do.

DioneTheDiabolist · 29/07/2011 21:46

I am proud though that this thread got all the way to page nine before someone mentioned the Nazis.Brew

seeker · 30/07/2011 11:42

So what makes a catholic a catholic?

DioneTheDiabolist · 30/07/2011 23:44

Since I have already answered that question Seeker, why don't you tell me what you think a catholic is. You didn't like my answer but perhaps you'll like your own.

DBennett · 30/07/2011 23:57

I had understood that popes speaking infallibly was very rare occurrence, it certainly has many caveats attached to it.

The BBC, at any rate, thinks the last time was in 2005 when John Paul II said there would never be female catholic priests and it should not even be discussed.

I know a lot of people who self-define as catholics but would disagree with that.

Maybe this just makes them cultural catholics (and religious christians) in the way you get cultural jewish atheists.

seeker · 31/07/2011 06:50

Dione. I define a catholic as a person in the basic tenets of the catholic faith as set out in the Nicene Creed. And who accepts the Pope as the Head of the Church as the Apostolic successor of Peter.

You are saying that whatever you believe, if you define yourself as a catholic, you are one.

sayithowitis · 31/07/2011 09:54

To all those who have been saying that not every catholic is an evil abuser:

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

seeker · 31/07/2011 11:58

Exactly, sayithowitis. And I will put a small bet on the Catholic on this thread not coming back. I believe your point to be unanswerable.

edam · 31/07/2011 12:35

Quite, sayit.

The RC church teaches that Pontius Pilate was wrong to wash his hands and pretend Jesus' fate was nothing to do with him. How come so many Catholics think institutionalised, widespread child abuse and collusion in child abuse is nothing to do with them?

edam · 31/07/2011 12:36

Or how can any Catholic believe it is nothing to do with them? A church that is established in the name of man who said 'suffer the little children to come unto me'?

Tortington · 31/07/2011 13:00

Its hardly based on the premis that jesus said " suffer children SUFFFFFFer. gross misrepresentation

New International Version (©1984)
But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Then Jesus called for the children and said to the disciples, "Let the children come to me. Don't stop them! For the Kingdom of God belongs to those who are like these children.

English Standard Version (©2001)
But Jesus called them to him, saying, ?Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

International Standard Version (©2008)
Jesus, however, called for the children and said, "Let the little children come to me, and stop keeping them away, because the kingdom of God belongs to people like these.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
But Jesus called the infants to him and said, "Don't stop the children from coming to me! Children like these are part of the kingdom of God.

King James Bible
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

American King James Version
But Jesus called them to him, and said, Suffer little children to come to me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

American Standard Version
But Jesus called them unto him, saying, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for to such belongeth the kingdom of God.

Bible in Basic English
But Jesus sent for them, saying, Let the children come to me, and do not keep them away, for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But Jesus, calling them together, said: Suffer children to come to me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Darby Bible Translation
But Jesus calling them to him said, Suffer little children to come to me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the kingdom of God.

English Revised Version
But Jesus called them unto him, saying, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Webster's Bible Translation
But Jesus called them to him, and said, Suffer little children to come to me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Weymouth New Testament
Jesus however called the infants to Him. "Let the little children come to me," He said; "do not hinder them; for it is to those who are childlike that the Kingdom of God belongs.

World English Bible
Jesus summoned them, saying, "Allow the little children to come to me, and don't hinder them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

Tortington · 31/07/2011 13:03

and as for the comments about standing by and letting it happen.

we all do the same in every walk of life.

what have YOU done as a non catholic ALL of you on this thread that cast the first stone as us catholics, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE specifically against these heinus crimes against children? That you ask me to give up my religeon based on these crimes.

that there is absolutley no recognition of the good things that the catholic church does or continues to do.

Tortington · 31/07/2011 13:11

what cause have you picked today? what about torture and injustice? i am a member of amnesty - what are you doing about it?

so what is your cause...today - you can only pick so many?

that you do not care? that you are siting back, that you are letting it happen?

are you all members of the nspcc? that you are putting a full stop to it?

are you giving to the rspca? no? are you sitting back then and letting cruelty to animals happen?

what of the children who are starving in africa - have you given your £2? what else are you doing to stop the evil that is the regimes of guns and war and political tyranny that allow circumstances like this to thrive? where the aid will not get to the children, where underhand levies will be paid to get the food to the people who need it.

what are you doing about this? that you accuse me as a catholic of doing nothing? Because i am catholic

you do nothing all the time on a number of issues. Do not ask me to defend the actions of the catholic church for i will not.

but do not accuse me of doing nothing. when you sit by and do nothing on any number of issues, like everyone else. That is not a fair basis for an argument

onagar · 31/07/2011 13:23

Imagine a frightened child locked in a room while the bishop discusses where to send the priest that just brutally abused him.

If you could speak to that child what would you say?

Would it be "I need the church and I can't let your agony get in the way of that" or something else entirely? Lets hear what it would be that would make it ok.

Marjoriew · 31/07/2011 13:28

They would say, ''No-one will hear you, no-one will believe you. No one cares. And then as like get a smack in the mouth for daring to speak at all.
THAT is how it came to this. THAT is how the Catholic Church has got away with it for so long and THAT is how they are still trying to cover it up.