to wonder how Catholics can reconcile their faith with the Vatican's reaction to Ireland's abuse scandal?

[ChristinedePizan]

Recalling their envoy to Ireland can only be seen as an a tacit acceptance of paedophilia surely? Rape and torture of children is okay obviously as long as its carried out by men of the cloth

[hiddenhome]

If they change too many things, they'll end up looking like the Church of England

[Martha85]

Annunziata - I also think and hope that there will be a massive change with the next Pope, But not the changes you are hoping for.

The church's policy on contraception will not be revised and nor should it.

[basingstoke]

Martha, it's more than that though. Mistakes is a very little word to describe what has happened. I don't want to remove myself from the church either, but, truly, the scale of the cover up has horrified me. And the church is built on authority even outside of ex cathedra pronouncements. And that authority is looking mighty shaky to me.

[kindlekid]

There are over a billion Catholics in the world. Ireland is a tiny part of that huge organisation. I doubt if the groundswell of opinion here will force a change. (I am Irish, baptised Catholic btw)

rhetorician makes some good points. I suppose you would have to live here, possibly even be born here to realise how much the Catholic church is intertwined with the culture. I know that where I live there is absolutely no access to non-denominational education and with the country in such a recession the chances of a new educational system being set up is impossible to imagine.

sassy Who is in blind denial? Are you saying the Irish people are denying the abuse? Because if so you are very much mistaken.

[Martha85]

maypole1 - I assume it is my comment you are refering to as stupid. Tell me this, do condoms prevent pregnancy?

[lettinggo]

YANBU and I think it's a valid question to discuss. I'm a non-practising catholic. However, I teach in a catholic school, got married in a catholic church, my son goes to a catholic school etc etc. In Ireland, being catholic is cultural as well as a religious thing. A friend of mine (not a catholic but another christian faith) and I were discussing religion once and what we believed. When I was saying what I did and didn't believe, she asked why I was catholic and not another christian faith whose teachings were more in line with what I believed. But for all that I have no respect for the hierarchy and don't accept some of the teachings, being an Irish catholic is a bit like being Jewish in that you don't have to believe or practise to still identify yourself with the religion. In Ireland, it's so tied up with our history that it's never going to be an easy break for people.

I am absolutley abhorred by all the revelations of the systematic abuse that happened here and the cover up that was and is being carried out from the top of the hierarchy. I was so proud of Enda Kenny when he made his speech in the Dáil - at last our government has stopped cow-towing to the vatican and is putting them in their place. Let them sulk all they like now, they recalled the papal nuncio before he was told to leave. That's what has happened.

After the Murphy report a few years ago, I heard Fr Brian Darcy on the radio and he made total sense to me. He said that the church is the people and that if the people are not happy with the church as it is, they should break away and form their own churches. He was basically advocating a new reformation and that is essentially what needs to happen in the catholic church now. How they can call themselves men of god and act as they have is incomprehensible to me.

[ChristinedePizan]

Annunziata - I mean that there will be transparency around allegations of abuse, that alleged abusers will be given up to the authorities and the Church will co-operate fully, that there will be a zero tolerance policy and convicted abusers will be defrocked.

And that the Church will accept that condoms are a vital part of preventing the spread of disease and will allow and encourage its followers to use them.

And accept that contraception is actually quite a Good Thing for most people.

That's a bit of a tall order possibly but the first one seems most critical to me as an outsider looking in. Those children must feel so utterly betrayed that a concerted effort to address this would go some way to their feeling they had been at least heard, if nothing else.

[basingstoke]

Are you arguing on the basis that condoms don't provide 100% protection against pregnancy or STD transmission?

[joric]

Amibeingdaft Did you start a thread slagging Muslims when Al Qaeda were terrorising people?

OP - Ditto above

[Serenitysutton]

Bravo lettinggo, great post

[PamBeesly]

While I agree that in theory 'faith' or religion is an individual choice, in Ireland it was very difficult to have any individual thought on faith, you were expected to believe whatever was told to you and any independent thinking/speaking person was shunned. Nice little set up the institution had for themselves here. OP I can't reconcile my 'faith' I'm Irish. I am certainly a retired catholic now and I abhor the catholic church in Ireland and all it stands for. There were good people in the church but there was such a huge amount of colluson and cover up that all the good deeds seem like a drop in the ocean. I know lots of people my age who feel the same (27) I just keep thinking of the rape and torture of all those innocents and the lives that have been ruined in this disgusting cover up operation.

[pinkytheshrinky]

You sound like a bit of a twat actually OP

[ChristinedePizan]

That is a great post lettinggo. Ireland's having such a bloody hard time of things at the moment that I am full of admiration for Enda Kenny speaking out as he did.

joric - I'm sad that some people don't feel able to discuss this.

[rhetorician]

lettinggo agree, great post

[HannahHack]

OP, would it help you if I asked you how you reconcile your Britishness with the fact that the prime minister took the country to war illegally and has not been brought to account for it?

Seriously, I am a British practising Catholic and I am deeply ashamed and angry about the Vatican and its actions now and through the centuries. In fact to the point that I have frequently questioned whether or not I can continue with the church.

However, I have frequently realised that catholocism is part of my cultural background so I can't leave it anymore than I can stop being English. Plus, I can't see it helping anyone if I did. Who would care if one more woman stopped her mass attendance? It would make no difference anyway.

[Martha85]

It's the Catholic Church that is in the wrong here not the Catholic Faith. I practice my faith daily and nothing will make me change that.

Condoms do not provide 100% protection fron pregnancy or the transmission of HIV. The only way to be sure that HIV is not transmitted is to abstain.

[Annunziata]

Christine- I would thoroughly agree with you on all those points. The church must adapt to the modern world if it wants to survive.

Martha85- I struggle with contraception hugely. I do understand why the policy exists and I do believe in the sanctity of life. However, I also believe that the lives of people across the world could be much improved if contraception was accepted.

[ChristinedePizan]

Hannah - I marched again and again against that war. I am deeply ashamed of the British government. If I could become another nationality I would. I have considered it, believe me.

[joric]

The vatican = money and power

[HannahHack]

@Christine I marched again and again too. But I can't change the fact that i am part of a society that voted Blair in. I would also ask you what you would become instead? I have considered other faiths and secularism, but I don't see a sea of perfection there either. I am not trying to have a go (honest I am nice!) but what nationality would you become instead and why?

[Martha85]

The church will survive but not by adapting to the modern world.

If people are really in a situation where they cannot provide for another child then they can use NFP. We would do better to teach people how to use NFP instead of throwing condoms at them.

Artificial contraception is not a good idea. The pill can cause abortions and infertility.

[basingstoke]

But it isn't the same as at all. We are talking about a religious faith rather than an elected government, where morality is, or should be, the very essence of its existence, and we are talking about an endemic culture of secrecy that allowed the continued abuse of 'innocents', to use a fairly catholic phrase. Asking how we reconcile our continued membership of our church with that knowledge is a completely reasonable question and I can see how it would be unfathomable for someone outside looking in.

[Sassybeast]

Marha - am intrigued. Do you practice your catholic 'faith' in a catholic 'church'. By participating in rituals and rhetoric led by a Catholic priest? Who has told you that paedophilia can be overlooked because a few clerics made a few 'mistakes'. mistakes which involved the systematic rape and abuse of children and deliberate and orchestrated attempts to hide the abusers? You are indoctrinated enough to call that a 'mistake' ?

To whoever asked about my point on blind denial - I kind of consider my case rested.

[joric]

Sorry, that should read-
The vatican = money and power
British government = money and power

Ordinary Catholics are as powerful as individual British citizens when it comes to policy.
I take your point about leaving the country though.

[basingstoke]

Why is NFP better than condoms?