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Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Philosophy/religion

to wonder how Catholics can reconcile their faith with the Vatican's reaction to Ireland's abuse scandal?

283 replies

ChristinedePizan · 25/07/2011 21:48

Recalling their envoy to Ireland can only be seen as an a tacit acceptance of paedophilia surely? Rape and torture of children is okay obviously as long as its carried out by men of the cloth

OP posts:

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onagar · 04/08/2011 15:43

This goes around in circles. The current excuse for supporting a child abusing organisation is that the poster can't get another religion because this is their religion and their connection to god.

If you then claim that the connection/belief can be anything you choose (or even nothing at all) then your excuse for supporting the child abusing organisation went out the window. It then amounts to you continuing your support because it's something you quite like to do.

Legally you may of course continue, but the rest of us can hold you in deep contempt for it.

SESthebrave · 04/08/2011 15:16

My DH is originally from Ireland and moved to England when he was 16yo. He goes to mass at Easter and Christmas. He absolutely defines himself as Catholic though and is offended if anyone suggests otherwise it is how he was brought up and is part of the essence of who he is.

Some of what the Catholic Church has done over the years is abhorrent to him but his Catholicism can't just be removed or stopped.

Some people would say he is not Catholic because he doesn't go to mass regularly but why should anyone else say what he is/isn't?

seeker · 04/08/2011 11:35

What does the culture comsist of?

Marjoriew · 04/08/2011 09:28

''Ireland and in USA''? Add a few more countries to that I would say.

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/08/2011 09:07

What makes you a Catholic is the culture.

seeker · 04/08/2011 07:00

So how do you know you are a catholic, rather than any other sort of Christian? What makes you a catholic?

debivamp · 04/08/2011 01:54

I am a Catholic because i believe in the faith not the church. Faith is a gift from God, the Church is a human institution and therefore has human it has failings. It should also be noted that the Catholic church is the people and I do believe in the goodness of most catholics. The vatican is something completley different. I am a proud practising Catholic and is raising my 6 year old DD in the faith.
I am very lucky to have only know good/excellent priests, many were more interested in the sprituality of our faith rather than Catholic ditates.
Child abuse of any kind is apporant and I do believe that the vatican should be condemed for it's mishandling and lack of action in all these cases, both in Ireland and in USA.

lettinggo · 04/08/2011 01:37

Well I'm one of those a-la-carte catholics. There's loads I don't agree with in the church, some of them quite substantial things. But I'm catholic and always will be. My catholicism is very different to the catholicism that my parents experienced and practise, a much more diluted version. And anyone in the world can pick all the holes they want in it, I'm catholic because that's who I am. It may be illogical to the rest of the world but being catholic is absolutely a part of who I am.

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/08/2011 01:23

And therein lies the problem. I am telling you that it is true, because it is. And you are saying that it isn't because it doesn't fit with your definition. You seem to think that you know more about Catholicism than the catholics who have responded to you on this thread. This is why you are coming across as obtuse.

seeker · 04/08/2011 01:13

No you haven't. You've said that you can believe anything you want to and if you say you'r a catholic you ar one. I could quote you chapter and verse, but you must know that's not true........

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/08/2011 01:08

I have already answered your question on what you have to believe to be a Catholic, I'm sure if you look back you will find it.

I believe that unless I fit your very, very narrow understanding of Catholicism, you will just keep telling me that I cannot be a Catholic, despite the fact that I am one. As you say, you are just not understanding this. That's alright. So long as you do not allow this lack of understanding to turn into bigotry.

seeker · 04/08/2011 00:59

Why won't you te ll me what you believe?

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/08/2011 00:55

Your lack of understanding comes across loud and clear Seeker and it seems that nothing anyone says is having any impact on that. That's why I suggested speaking to your Catholic friends in RL.

seeker · 04/08/2011 00:52

Dione, honestly, I' m not being deliberately stupid. But I just don't understand how you van disagree with everything the catholic churchnstands for and still be a catholic. Which is what my post of 2 august, 17.48 says.

I ask again - what do you have to believe to be a catholic?

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/08/2011 00:36

Seeker, I refer you to your post of 02-Aug-11 17:48:28. You got it right there. If you are still having difficulty, then perhaps you should speak to your catholic friends in RL, as you are obviously not understanding it here.

"Your culture is essentially a matter of where you were born and lived," Onagar that would be your nationality, and while nationality is important to ones culture, it is only a part of it.

onagar · 03/08/2011 08:48

Actually the thread was about your faith which is a different matter to your culture. Your culture is essentially a matter of where you were born and lived, but your faith is what you personally believe and stand for.

If you were born in France in say the 30s then yes it would be pointless to ask why you have remained French, but not pointless to ask why you later supported the German occupation.

seeker · 03/08/2011 07:01

Because being Jewish involves a sense of shared language, cuisine, culture and heritage. An involvement whatever level with the state of Israel and a perception of shared history and nationality.

Cornsilksey- I don't

DioneTheDiabolist · 02/08/2011 23:50

Well Seeker, if you understand that being Jewish can be a cultural thing, well it's like that. Only with Catholics.
Where has your understanding come from?

cornsilksy · 02/08/2011 23:44

'Being a Jew can be a cultural thing. So can being c of e as it is the established religion of this country. You can't, surely, be a cultural roman catholic.'

seeker why do you presume that the catholics on MN are of British Heritage?

seeker · 02/08/2011 23:36

seeker you are being deliberatley obtuse, and i am not going to partake any further mocking of my culture lifestyle and faith.

I have not mocked, and I am not being deliberately obtuse. I want to know what people feel they have to believe in order to be a catholic. And for some reason nobody will tell me. My understanding is that the tenets of the faith were set down in the catechism and the Nicene Creed. But I appear to be wrong.

seeker · 02/08/2011 23:32

Just saying yes you can be all those things and be a catholic isn't an explanation! How can you not believe anything the catholic church stands for and still be a catholic? It makes no sense! Are there no fixed points?

seeker · 02/08/2011 23:30

Just saying yes you can be all those things and be a catholic isn't an explanation! How can you not believe anything the catholic church stands for and still be a catholic? It makes no sense! Are there no fixed points?

DioneTheDiabolist · 02/08/2011 23:08

Look Seeker, it has been explained to you time and time again. Yes you can be all those things and still be a Catholic. Human history has (until recently and only in the west has it changed) rejected such values. Most parts of the world still reject such values.

seeker · 02/08/2011 18:09

And given that you believe all that stuff then why on earth would you want to associate yourself with a faith that historically has rejected such values?

Tortington · 02/08/2011 18:09

seeker you are being deliberatley obtuse, and i am not going to partake any further mocking of my culture lifestyle and faith.

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