to wonder how Catholics can reconcile their faith with the Vatican's reaction to Ireland's abuse scandal?

[ChristinedePizan]

Recalling their envoy to Ireland can only be seen as an a tacit acceptance of paedophilia surely? Rape and torture of children is okay obviously as long as its carried out by men of the cloth

Aisling, I understand what you're saying about people continuing to marry in churches, have their children baptised and make communions and confirmations. I suppose I'm one of those people and yes, there's an element of not rocking the boat for me- my aunt is very religious and would worry hugely if my ds wasn't baptised (she grew up in the days when unbaptised babies went to limbo and even though the teachings have changes, she has that fear) I know she would fret.

But also, it's the cultural part of these ceremonies. They are rites of passage in our lives and have been marked by generation after generation. We know what to do and how to behave at them because we've been to so many. It's part of our culture.

I lived for a time in Israel and have many (very secular) Jewish friends. They are not at all religious but all of them would have had a bar or bat mitzvah. All, so far, have gotten married in a synagogue, male children have had a bris (could easily be done in hospital like in the US but they choolse to have the Rabbi). Because it's tradition.

I'm not particularly religious at all. I abhor the abuse perpetrated by catholic clergy and abhor even more the cover up that was done by the hierarchy. It's unacceptable and just plain morally wrong. The hierarchy needs to change, the power they have and had needs to be changed. However, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are many many many good priests and nuns. Many. It must be awful for them to have to be at the cold face of people's anger.

I've been to three funerals in the last week. Two were of elderly people and there funeral masses were lovely - a celebration of a life lived. One was for a neighbour, a 32 year old father of three who sadly gave in to his depression. That was the saddest funeral I have ever been to. On all three occasions, all the community came together to acknowledge the loss of those families. Everyone knew how to sympathise, their place in the ceremony, their part of the ceremony that marks the end of someone's life.

It's easy to say people should be leaving the church but until there's something to leave for, where do you go? What will fill the place of the church?

Cant' believe I wrote There funeral masses. OMG. THEIR THEIR THEIR

Christine I didn't say that you had claimed all Catholics support child abuse but words to that effect have been used on this thread which is something I take great exception to.

Thanks for your advice on how you think I should behave but I neither need nor want your support or understanding regarding my chosen belief system.

HTH.

The Pope is not just the Head of the Church, he is closer to God to Catholics "the vicegerent upon earth, not a mere man, but of a very God". How anyone can follow his crap about homosexuals and deny he's been totally immoral and repugnant with respect to his direct and subsequent cover up of systemic abuse, horrific abuse within his church is pretty abhorrent.

WineandPizza: "this is a deliberately provocative thread pushing the irrational theory that all Catholics are pro child abuse"

That's utter bullshit.

OP, I'm a Catholic , not leaving the Church.
There is no point in explaining why, I could give you a hundred reasons, thought through and valid to me, I'm sure you would still find a way to dismiss them . So time it would take me to write it down I choose to spend with my children instead. There is enough websites and articles around for you to educate yourself as to why a vast majority of catholics opt to stay in their church.

I can only assure you that I am a good decent human being, or at least striving hard to be one and so do my catholic family and friends.
Some of my ideas of what is good or bad will no doubt vary from yours, just like a labour supporter will never be of the same thought as a conservative , a Muslim as a Jew , a mother will clash with many other mothers on what is good what is bad in bringing up a child.

I swear to you that I most definitely abhorr any kind of child abuse, the thought makes me sick to the stomach. It is never right, it is evil.

I am not brainwashed, I don't turn blind eye . I am intelligent, educated ( not in this country, so , please, don't judge based on my grammar, spelling), a deep thinker.
I thoroughly examined all the facts, spent hours upon hours, days upon days, researching, praying, examining my conscience and came to my conclusions. I am at peace with my choices, I am at peace with God.

I can understand your thinking OP and don't blame you, but IMHO it comes from ignorance, predjudice and succumbing to media frenzy, not real unbiased understanding. I don't blame you for harbouring a hate towards the Catholic Church, but , please, please, don't ever let it turn to hate towards individual believers, you must know it never ever brought any good to the humanity.

Also, I have bad news for you I'm afraid.

My local catholic church , here in the South of England, 30 mins from London, is bursting in its seams every Sunday mass that I attend. And I'm talking about one mass , there are two on the day, and there are other catholic churches literally within 5 miles to ours with similar attendance.
People of all generations.
It is an affluent area so donations are very high every single week, more bad news for you.

And next month over a million enthusiastic joyful young catholics ( 14 to 30 years old) ,from every corner of the world will meet in Madrid to celebrate their faith. Check out the World Youth Day , its website or on You Tube.
Lots of young people from our parish spent a year fundraising and can't wait for the event.

So the church still stands, determined not to be defeated by some thoroughly evil people within and the hate of some people outside.
Just as Jesus promised, He is with us to the end of times and the gates of hell will never destroy His church.

I can understand your thinking OP and don't blame you, but IMHO it comes from ignorance, predjudice and succumbing to media frenzy, not real unbiased understanding.

That's pretty much what the Pope said when trying to dismiss the claims. It's everybody else's fault.

Christine no it isn't, and I don't know why you felt the need to speak to me like that.

Check my previous posts in response to Izzy who claimed that anyone who believes in the sanctity of the Pope (i.e. Catholics) would have no problem condoning child abuse.

Cheers.

No, SirGin

The Pope also admitted sins, wrong doings and mistakes within church, over and over again, but people who hate the church don't want to see it on its knees or renewed, they want to see it in ashes, destroyed.

I'm sorry quietnight but you must read different newspapers and watch different news stations. The Pope and the Vatican have dragged their feet over and over again on this issue. You are wearing rose tinted glasses IMO

I agree SirGin, I'm sure not everything the Pope does and says is reported in the media you seem to narrow yourself to, through choice or necessity ( different language ). The media which is not only often biased but also, naturally, less interested in church's activities being the media in a non Catholic country, assuming you are talking about British press/TV.

I live in UK but also follow media in Poland. Of course, they report loads and loads more on the Pope's speeches, activities etc.

When he goes on one of his many pilgrimiges, you cannot start to compare the details reported in Polish media to the British. You miss A LOT SirGin.
And I have to watch my Polish satellite channels with my spectacles on, yes, but I promise they are not rose tinted, they are, errr, plain ordinary, but a good prescription.

Parish priests take their directives from their dioceses - the Bishop, who takes his from the Archbishop, who takes his from the Cardinals, who take theirs from THE POPE!

And even if some parishes moved priests and nuns on to other parishes/countries, it was the responsibility of those higher up in the pecking order to see that their directives were adhered to.

In order to be a full member of Roman Catholic Church, you have to accept that the Pope is infallible on the subjects of morality and faith.

He is deeply mired in the cover up of the Hilda abuse scandal, and I honestly don't see how ayone with a brain, the ability to think rationally and eyes to read can possibly remain a member of the Catholic Church. And for those who say the Pope isn't involved, or if he is has accepted full responsibility and has apologised and taken steps that it will not happen again, remember that the church is currently in the High Court trying to prove that priests are not in a employee relationship with the church so there is not requirement to pay compensation to the victims. Oh, and google Kit Cunningham.

Hilda abuse - child abuse, obviously. Hilda abuse is something completely different.

That's one poster, not the whole thread which is what you alleged. Given you swore in your first post, I don't think you're in any position to complain if I do too.

quietnight - I hope I'm not prejudiced. But I would like to know why the Pope was so angry about the Cloyne report and threw his toys out of the pram rather than addressing the serious issues it raised. And yes, I do find it very disturbing that people are still chucking money into the pot which has covered up systematic child abuse.

Quietnight. The media report the big stories. The well documented vatican's line when all this exploded was that it was all a media witch hunt, anti christian elements etc etc. And you know what ? It really wasn't. There really were hundreds of children being abused, senior clergy really did knowingly move these evil people to other areas to continue abuse, and the church really were covering it up. It's not media bias.

And you know how they got away with it in Ireland ? Because the country is so bound up in Catholicism no one dared challenge them.

The initial response was incredibly defensive, closing ranks, denial. And what was missing was a abject appology to all the victims.

And to be honest I wouldn't expect balanced reporting about the Pope in Poland, it being such a staunch catholic country.

Christine, don't be disturbed by me giving to church every week. Unless you find it disturbing that the poor are fed ,clothed, given medicine and housed, because that's where a big chunk of my money goes to.

Yes, you probably will be disturbed that we help feed, cloth and keep warm in winter our wonderful parish priest, who gave us no reason to suspect he secretly abuses children, but to you is just ' one of them, a man in cloth = guilty '.

And some of the money goes towards the upkeep of our church building.

And , yes, some probably goes somewhere, horror of horror, to the Vatican, but I have good reasons to hope it is used towards good, I give in good faith.

SirGin to paraphase your last sentence, I would not expect balanced reporting about Pope in Britain, it being such a staunch anti Catholic country.

But I follow both British and Polish media, so maybe in the end I do get some balanced view?

• paraphrase, not paraphase, of course

Christine, you let your feelings about Catholic people be known.

I would like to know how do they manifest in RL, do you feel instantly predjudiced against a person you meet once you know they attend mass, would you in any way discriminate, keep away, never associate, let your feelings be known in any way, influence treatment ?
Would you think of them as poor deluded people, or plain evil ( collaborating with evil ) ?
What if you had a teenage daughter and she fell in love with my 16 year old super gorgeous and popularson who goes to church voluntarily with us every Sunday and just confessed to me his faith has got stronger lately?
I guess you would not be thrilled, even though he is 'an amazing young man and role model' ( secular school's headteacher's words, not mother's bias ).
But would you instantly dislike him , hope the relationship breaks up ?

Just curious. Obviously, I think and wonder about the above often.
Actually, I would like others to answer, please, not just Christine ?

Not at all quietnight :) I have plenty of Catholic friends but they have stopped supporting their Church financially since this all came to light, as some of the Catholic posters on this thread have said they have done. I have huge amounts of respect for them because I know what a struggle that has been. In a similar way, I have huge respect for the Irish parliament because the Church and state have been so massively intertwined for so long in Ireland that to stand up and say 'enough' and expel the Church's envoy must have been a terribly difficult decision.

The Church has been given time and space to deal with this abhorrent issue and they have simply brushed it under the carpet. I think that's appalling. I don't for one minute hold every single Catholic responsible for the atrocities that were carried out in their name but I do question those who still follow the Church's teachings blindly when their Church has been proved to be morally corrupt.

quietnight, the UK is one of the most tolerant countries in the world, that's why so many foreigners choose to live here.. You're arguing that the reporting of abuse by priests and the well documented responses by the Vatican are purely the product of anti Catholic press.

None of what is being discussed here is tittle tattle. These are facts not idle speculation.

And you know, nobody is disturbed by the poor being fed, or you going to church, nobody is saying all priests are kiddie fiddlers.

But if you ignore the truth, and bury your head as the church did. you're doing everyone a disservice, mostly yourself.

Because I do not believe that the Church has been proved to be morally corrupt, that is a sweep generalization. Some people,yes,some hierarchy in Church , yes. Not Church as a whole.

But I will go back to my question, so how would you treat me, the "guilty" one, who goes to mass AND gives donations ?

< sigh > I would treat you as another human being. I'm not a Christian but I try to love everybody, so I'd treat you with respect and humanity.

It's entirely up to you how you spend your time.