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Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

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Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Philosophy/religion

to wonder how Catholics can reconcile their faith with the Vatican's reaction to Ireland's abuse scandal?

283 replies

ChristinedePizan · 25/07/2011 21:48

Recalling their envoy to Ireland can only be seen as an a tacit acceptance of paedophilia surely? Rape and torture of children is okay obviously as long as its carried out by men of the cloth

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seeker · 02/08/2011 08:06

I think safeguarding training is an excellent idea. However, I think expecting congregations to pay for priests to receive such training in the current climate is - tactless, to say the least.

Being British by birth is simply a matter of accident of birth and ancestry. You cannot be a Catholic simply because your parents were. Becoming British, however, is a matter of conscious choice, hoop jumping, and rule keeping. Much like being a Catholic. You cannot self define as British, any more than you can self define as a Catholic. Being able to would undermine both definitions.

GentlemanGin · 02/08/2011 08:56

When the Pope came to the UK recently did Catholics welcome him with adoration ? Or were there mass protests by Catholics ?

There was indeed a protest, but not by Catholics. Whilst the Pope was being treated like a pop star, all the people at the receiving end of his moralizing were on the streets with placards.

The Catholic church wants power and authority, it wants influence in Politics to push forward it's agenda on abortion, homosexuals, segregation in education, and be free to deal ( or not ) with abuse itself without outside interference.

Apparently only 5% of Catholics in this country agree with the Pope's ban on contraception. Only 11% of Catholics think that homosexuality is morally wrong.

So why is there such a golf between the laity and the Vatican ?! It's your Church, I keep reading, 'well what do you want us to do ? ' , standing up to the Vatican would be a start. I don't see large Catholic protests going on anywhere, I don't see any decent in St Peter's square. I don't see mass defections to the CofE. There maybe murmurings in the pews, and agonizing in the pulpit but is that really going to change anything ?

Again, it's your Church, you figure out how to make a change for the best. But if it involves doing nothing, and the Church remains the same arrogant institution in denial about it's complicit behaviour in child torture, then you've failed it and yourself.

For the most part I just hear voices like the Polish women up thread who is of the belief that this whole issue is down to an anti-catholic British press , 'militant atheists', and a corrupt immoral secular society. Which is pretty much how the Vatican wanted to frame it.

onagar · 02/08/2011 09:23

I would say that Catholics are those Christians who are part of the catholic church. That it means "christians-who-are-part-of-the-catholic-church". While clearly you can do most of the same things without being part of the church they would not then require the label.

To claim the label while also claiming to be nothing to do with the church would be an odd position to take. Even odder to then come onto a thread about that church and claim that the criticism is unfair to you as a catholic.

edam · 02/08/2011 13:57

You can be a Catholic who doesn't go to Church, just as you can be CofE or even Jewish without actively worshipping. You may have been brought up RC.

DioneTheDiabolist · 02/08/2011 17:03

GentlemanGin, it is not about murmering in the pews, protests by Catholics have resulted in a complete overhaul of the way the hierarchy deal with child abuse. Priests have been jailed. Bishops have been fired had their resignations accepted. Catholics have stopped going to mass. The Vatican has recalled its envoy from Ireland.

Do you think that this happened because of a few mumbles in the pews?

As for the gulf between laity and the Vatican. That has always been the case. The Catholic church changes at grassroots level and eventually this works its way up, it is a very slow process, particularly as it is an international organisation, so although Catholics in UK and other western countries believe that things like contraception, homosexuality and divorce are not sinful this is not true in other cultures.

seeker · 02/08/2011 17:05

Being a Jew can be a cultural thing. So can being c of e as it is the established religion of this country. You can't, surely, be a cultural roman catholic.

DioneTheDiabolist · 02/08/2011 17:14

Of course you can Seeker, I have been trying to tell you this for ages.

seeker · 02/08/2011 17:48

So I'm right- you don't have to believe anything to be a catholic? You can think contraception's a good idea, abortion's ok, women are equal, it,'s fine to be gay, the pope'san idiot, sex outside marriage is fine, stem cell research is a good idea and nothing happens to the bit of bread in the mass and still be a catholic?

Tortington · 02/08/2011 18:09

seeker you are being deliberatley obtuse, and i am not going to partake any further mocking of my culture lifestyle and faith.

seeker · 02/08/2011 18:09

And given that you believe all that stuff then why on earth would you want to associate yourself with a faith that historically has rejected such values?

DioneTheDiabolist · 02/08/2011 23:08

Look Seeker, it has been explained to you time and time again. Yes you can be all those things and still be a Catholic. Human history has (until recently and only in the west has it changed) rejected such values. Most parts of the world still reject such values.

seeker · 02/08/2011 23:30

Just saying yes you can be all those things and be a catholic isn't an explanation! How can you not believe anything the catholic church stands for and still be a catholic? It makes no sense! Are there no fixed points?

seeker · 02/08/2011 23:32

Just saying yes you can be all those things and be a catholic isn't an explanation! How can you not believe anything the catholic church stands for and still be a catholic? It makes no sense! Are there no fixed points?

seeker · 02/08/2011 23:36

seeker you are being deliberatley obtuse, and i am not going to partake any further mocking of my culture lifestyle and faith.

I have not mocked, and I am not being deliberately obtuse. I want to know what people feel they have to believe in order to be a catholic. And for some reason nobody will tell me. My understanding is that the tenets of the faith were set down in the catechism and the Nicene Creed. But I appear to be wrong.

cornsilksy · 02/08/2011 23:44

'Being a Jew can be a cultural thing. So can being c of e as it is the established religion of this country. You can't, surely, be a cultural roman catholic.'

seeker why do you presume that the catholics on MN are of British Heritage?

DioneTheDiabolist · 02/08/2011 23:50

Well Seeker, if you understand that being Jewish can be a cultural thing, well it's like that. Only with Catholics.
Where has your understanding come from?

seeker · 03/08/2011 07:01

Because being Jewish involves a sense of shared language, cuisine, culture and heritage. An involvement whatever level with the state of Israel and a perception of shared history and nationality.

Cornsilksey- I don't

onagar · 03/08/2011 08:48

Actually the thread was about your faith which is a different matter to your culture. Your culture is essentially a matter of where you were born and lived, but your faith is what you personally believe and stand for.

If you were born in France in say the 30s then yes it would be pointless to ask why you have remained French, but not pointless to ask why you later supported the German occupation.

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/08/2011 00:36

Seeker, I refer you to your post of 02-Aug-11 17:48:28. You got it right there. If you are still having difficulty, then perhaps you should speak to your catholic friends in RL, as you are obviously not understanding it here.

"Your culture is essentially a matter of where you were born and lived," Onagar that would be your nationality, and while nationality is important to ones culture, it is only a part of it.

seeker · 04/08/2011 00:52

Dione, honestly, I' m not being deliberately stupid. But I just don't understand how you van disagree with everything the catholic churchnstands for and still be a catholic. Which is what my post of 2 august, 17.48 says.

I ask again - what do you have to believe to be a catholic?

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/08/2011 00:55

Your lack of understanding comes across loud and clear Seeker and it seems that nothing anyone says is having any impact on that. That's why I suggested speaking to your Catholic friends in RL.

seeker · 04/08/2011 00:59

Why won't you te ll me what you believe?

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/08/2011 01:08

I have already answered your question on what you have to believe to be a Catholic, I'm sure if you look back you will find it.

I believe that unless I fit your very, very narrow understanding of Catholicism, you will just keep telling me that I cannot be a Catholic, despite the fact that I am one. As you say, you are just not understanding this. That's alright. So long as you do not allow this lack of understanding to turn into bigotry.

seeker · 04/08/2011 01:13

No you haven't. You've said that you can believe anything you want to and if you say you'r a catholic you ar one. I could quote you chapter and verse, but you must know that's not true........

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/08/2011 01:23

And therein lies the problem. I am telling you that it is true, because it is. And you are saying that it isn't because it doesn't fit with your definition. You seem to think that you know more about Catholicism than the catholics who have responded to you on this thread. This is why you are coming across as obtuse.

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