to wonder how Catholics can reconcile their faith with the Vatican's reaction to Ireland's abuse scandal?

[ChristinedePizan]

Recalling their envoy to Ireland can only be seen as an a tacit acceptance of paedophilia surely? Rape and torture of children is okay obviously as long as its carried out by men of the cloth

I think we all understand that "suffer" means "allow" in this context.

and in answer to the question "what have you done?" - one thing I have not done is remain an active member of an organisation condones chlld abuse. Can you say the same?

I find it difficult to put my thoughts into words and to make them intelligible to others.

custardo is right. Catholics are being called to account for the actions of their hierarchy, accused of being complicit, of 'doing nothing'. But every day every citizen of every country is guilty of doing nothing on so many issues.

So I would like to ask the OP and others 'What would you like us to do?'

Not the hierarchy, not the Pope or the Vatican or the bishops but the many ordinary Irish Catholics who are horrified and appalled by what has happened.

If you feel very strongly about the cause you must have formed an idea of what would be a satisfactory response. I am a Catholic and apart from staying away from mass while I think it all through I am at a loss at what to do.

That would be a start, kindle kid. Not donating any money to the church would be a good thing to do - if the money stopped coming in that would make the Vatican stop and think a bit. So would empty pews.

Seeker, that has already happened. Many Catholics stopped going to church and stayed away for a long time, some have not yet returned, some may never return.

I will put a small bet on the Catholic on this thread not coming back
Seeker, were you referring to me here?

kindlekid

there is, as has been mentioned further up, a difference between inactivity against bad things happening in wider society, and inactivity in an organization one is an active member of.

Personally I give money to various charities and do my best to be a compassionate loving human being.

I think the issue that this thread began discussing was in regards to the Vatican's response to The Irish PM, Enda Kenny's speech on the Cloyne report. Kenny ( who the balls to speak up ) said the Vatican seemed more interested in upholding the church's power and reputation than confronting the abuse of Irish children by its priests and religious orders.

The Vatican's response was to throw a hiisy fit and recall their envoy to Ireland. Kenny was then branded a Nazi by a Catholic bishop in Ireland. Because obviously he think's ( as have many in the past ) that the Church should be beyond reproach.

I think not going to mass is actually a cop out if you feel there are serious problems in the Church, unless you think it's unfixable. All well and easy for me to say , but I think I'd either leave and join another Church or stay and try and change the organization from the bottom up.

I think the problem most non-Catholics have about this sorry situation is not so much the heinous child rape and torture that went on for decades unchallenged, but the fact that the Church was more interested in protecting it's 'brand' in-spite of small children suffering. For an organization that regularly takes the moral high ground I find this sickening and hypocritical.

I also find it utterly bewildering why a church with almost unlimited wealth doesn't sell all it's riches and solve some of the problems the poor round the world face. Jesus was a champion of the poor amongst others, the Pope and his cardinals seem to walk around in very expensive clothes and live the life of Reily in their own palace in their own private country.

Seeker, that has already happened. Many Catholics stopped going to church and stayed away for a long time, some have not yet returned, some may never return.

Not enough to have any impact on the Vatican's power or wealth though. And too many ordinary Catholics washing their hands of the actiosnof thenChurch they support.

"I also find it utterly bewildering why a church with almost unlimited wealth doesn't sell all it's riches and solve some of the problems the poor round the world face. Jesus was a champion of the poor amongst others, the Pope and his cardinals seem to walk around in very expensive clothes and live the life of Reily in their own palace in their own private country." - GentlemanGin

I totally agree with you on this point. I remember as a child, my parish church was a corrugated iron temporary church and the parish was fundraising madly for a new church. Even then, when I would hear updates at mass about how much was in the building fund, I thought that this is not how Jesus would want money to be spent. He wouldn't care where mass was said, and whether the chalice was made from cracked pottery rather than gold. And that was before I know of the wealth of the Vatican itself.

Change in any very large organisation happens slowly. I personally believe nothing will substantially change while this pope is there because he evidently has no desire to change things.

And because there is no drive for change from the laity.

So Seeker, not donating money to the church and empty pews while they think about it is not enough for you. So I repeat, what response from Catholics would satisfy you? Also you say there is no drive for change from the laity, then what would you call Enda Kenny's response? He is laity.

kindlekid - I'm not a member of the RC church, but I think those who are should probably be putting pressure on the authorities of that church to act. To come clean. To confess. And to atone. Are ordinary Catholics protesting about child abuse and the cover-up? Are ordinary Catholics demanding the church heirarchy gives paedophiles up to the police of each country in which abuse has happened? Demanding the Church hands over all information about those crimes? Are ordinary Catholics kicking up a fuss and demanding action? While ordinary Catholics are quiet, the Vatican, the paedophiles and those who colluded in their actions and even enabled them, are getting away with their horrendous crimes - crimes that cry out for justice.

I imagine some ordinary RCs are keeping quiet out of bewilderment and horror. Others might fear rocking the boat, fear being unpopular or excluded themselves if they speak out. But surely anyone who genuinely follows the man who said 'suffer the little children to come unto me' must feel obliged to speak out?

seeker" and in answer to the question "what have you done?" - one thing I have not done is remain an active member of an organisation condones chlld abuse. Can you say the same?" yes i can actually.

how have you non catholics spoken out. what action have you taken? specifically.

Edam, they are putting pressure on. What Enda Kenny (practicing Catholic) said caused the pope to throw a hissy fit and recall his envoy. The Irish Catholic newspaper said that what Enda said was indicative of Catholic feeling and they were right. No Catholics fear rocking the boat, the laity are furious, the priests in the pulpit alternate between apologetic and furious. It's just that none of this is being reported in the press and therefore non-catholics think it isn't happening.

Even when Catholics come onto a discussion board and say that it is for some reason they are not believed.

I'm speaking out now, Custardo - right here. And the Catholics are resisting and saying things are fine as they are.

Are you saying you have left the church Custardo?

Onagar, what Catholics are saying things are fine as they are?

Any catholic who sill goes to church and puts money in the plate is saying that they think things are fine as they are.

Seeker, what are the collections in church for?

Well £1 buys a padlock to keep a child in a cellar. If you are more generous you may pay the fare money to get an abuser out of the jurisdiction before he can be arrested.

i am saying that i do not practice my Catholicism or faith within a church.

do i pass the test then? can i be a catholic and have my faith too?

The collections in church go to buildings maintainance, running costs, salaries and charitable causes. Oh and in some cases, paying for people to go on courses on safeguarding. Why?

Custard, if you're not a member of a church, don't go to Mass and don't support the church hierarchy, what makes you a catholic?I'm not being snippy, I genuinely don't understand.

Seeker, if you're not a member of a political party, don't vote, and think the monarchy is rubbish, what makes you british?

Most if not all organisations whose work brings them in to contact with children and/or vulnerable people run safeguarding training i would have thought

Certainly schools do- do you not think this is a good idea?