to wonder how Catholics can reconcile their faith with the Vatican's reaction to Ireland's abuse scandal?

[ChristinedePizan]

Recalling their envoy to Ireland can only be seen as an a tacit acceptance of paedophilia surely? Rape and torture of children is okay obviously as long as its carried out by men of the cloth

Oh sorry, I misunderstood. TBH I'd probably treat you like I did white South Africans who didn't condemn apartheid or Israelis who support the occupation of Palestine - I'd be polite, I always am, but I couldn't be your friend because of your support for an institution which denies other people their human rights.

"I have plenty of Catholic friends but they have stopped supporting their Church financially since this all came to light, as some of the Catholic posters on this thread have said they have done. I have huge amounts of respect for them because I know what a struggle that has been."
Good post Christine, seems like your RL friends have answered your question for you.

Oh yes, Dione, they have. I don't know how representative they are of most Catholics though, hence this thread :)

What, did you think that you would find Catholics who said that clerical abuse was OK?

No, not at all. I wondered if any would continue to defend the institution despite all the evidence. And some have.

I don't know of a single catholic who is not outraged, furious and disappointed by the fact of clerical abuse of children. But I do know many who somehow manage to marry this proper human response with a continuing respect and obedience to the catholic hierarchy which continues to condone, excuse and cover up the abuse. This I find supremely baffling.

And what is your view now: Do you believe that they are representative of "most" Catholics?

Seeker, respect and obedience to any hierarchy is something that does not sit well with me at all, particularly when it comes to my religion and government. I do not feel that I have to respect or obey the current hierarchy in order to remain Catholic, for me being a Catholic is so much bigger and much more personal than the management of the day.

Sounds like a scism Dione.

What is the definition of a Catholic then ? As opposed to say a Baptist ?

A Catholic is someone who has gone through the Sacraments of the Catholic faith and goes or doesn't go to mass as calls themselves a Catholic. A Baptist is someone who has accepted adult baptism, may or may not attend services, but calls themselves a Baptist.

You see, a Catholic is a unique individual. Faith itself is unique to the person who has it. Every single person's faith is different. Even religion, with its apparent rigidity of dogma and hierarchy is constantly changing.

That should be "and calls themselves a Catholic (instead of as).

You can't,surely,say "I am a catholic but because of his stance on clerical abuse of children, I no longer acknowledge the pope as head of the church" Doesn't that make you not a catholic?

I would like to think that all those who are financially supported by the Catholic Church, ie employed, would have at least talked to their congregation about the atrocities. I fear noone has in the age old Catholic if we don't mention it it hasn't happened. I think even if the Pope had actually raped and beaten the children himself instead of standing by and protecting the church by putting more children in harms way, the Catholics would still want him as Pope. It is strange and disgusting. The hysteria around his visit was awful, I wonder if the owner of the abusive care home in Bristol escapes public damning like this man has.

I can and do surely disagree with the Pope's stances on most things. It doesn't stop me being a Catholic. Catholicism is not one man.

ThePosieParker, not only do priests regularly talk to their congregation about the abuse, just in case they don't, the bishop occassionally sends out messages that have to be read out in mass regarding it.

What did you say to the priest in your parish about his silence regarding clerical child abuse.

Forgive my ignorance Dione, but surely part of the Catholic doctrine, and being a Catholic is that you accept the Pope as God's rep on Earth and are obedient to the Vatican. No ?

You can't be a catholic and not accept that the pope is, in certain circumstances, infallible. One of these circumstances is when he speaks on matters of faith and morals.

Well, no. Part of my Catholic education was about the rebels in the church. We were taught about the dogma and hierarchy and it was explained to us that these are things that change very slowly, but they do actually change. We were taught that the pope is not always right, well it would be very silly to ignore a history that included the Borgias, the Inquisition and atrocities carried out against "heretics" and those of other faiths.

The church is its people, not its hierarchy and if the Vatican were to crushed in a terrrible asteroid shower tomorrow, Catholicism would endure. BTW, it's not just me. I know lots of priests that disagree with aspects of Catholicism, however they do take a Vow of Obedience, so while they may voice their opposition to the rules, they are supposed to follow them.

So basically you can believe anything you like and still self define as a Catholic?

Papal infallibility does not occur everytime the pope speaks on matters of faith and morals. It is a very particular and rarely used part of Catholicism.

No Seeker, you can't believe in anything you like and still define yourself as a Catholic. But you don't have to agree with all of the rules of the Church, nor do you have to believe in everything that the pope says in order to do so. In some instances it is better for a Catholic not to believe what the pope of the day says and to promote change in the rules or actually break them.

So what's the minimum you have to believe to be a Catholic?

The doctrine of infallibility must have changed, BTW- it always used to be that his pronouncements on faith and morality were infallible. As well as anything he says ex cathedra.

I'm not sure what the minimum is, Catholicism is quite a broad church, but I'll let you know when I'm excommunicated. I am quite sure that some sort of belief in Jesus would be required and as I have said, receipt of the sacraments, baptism in particular would be required.

The doctrine of infallibility has changed since it first made an appearance in the middle ages and continues to do so. However, it does not apply to everything a pope says or does. Seeker is it your understanding that everytime the pope says anything the concept of papal infallibility comes into play?

Have just remembered (school was such a long time ago). There is no real minimum as in some cases complete rejection of the church and its teachings doesn't actually bar you from being a Catholic and since they finally got rid of the ridiculous notion of limbo, baptism isn't really necessary. Weird isn't it? I guess Dara was right. It is really the stickiest religion there is.

Nope.The poplins only infallible when talking about matters of faith and morals and when speaking ex cathedra.

So what makes a catholic a catholic then? If you don't have to believe anything in the catechism,for example, how are you different from any other Christian?

Everytime the pope talks about matters of faith and morals papal infallibility is not invoked. When he speaks ex cathedra it is assumed that by doing so, he is invoking infallibility.

So, what makes a Catholic a Catholic? I suppose that's down to the individual. And that is the point that I have been trying to make. Catholics are not a homogenous mass. They do not all share the same beliefs. They do not all practice in the same way. Some do not practice at all. Some are progressive, some are conservative. Some like the current pope, others are looking forward to the next one. However, it may not always be down to the individual as the church may consider one a Catholic, even if that person has renounced the church and belief in Scripture.

Now thi is where I have a problem. Basically you are saying that you can believe practically anything and if you choose to call yourself a Catholic then you are one. Apart from anything else (and I don't obviously mean that's what you are doing) that is brilliant way of abrogating all responsibility for the behaviour of the Catholic Hierarchy. "Oh, yes, I'm a Catholic, but I'm absolutely nothing to do with those Catholics over there who are anti abortion, anti birth control, condone child abuse and think that condoms don't protect you from HIV/AIDS and even if they do, you can't use them because it's a sin"