To post a list of Vigils

[discobrain]

This is a thread on twitter for the current list of vigils for the murdered girl Brianna Ghey, around the country.

Listed here

Rest in power, precious girl.

When it comes to children being murdered @Clarabell77, yes all lives do matter. And rather ironic you using BLM when the fact is that most murdered teenagers who have had no vigils to remember them or even much press coverage are black.

Yes, I had exactly the same thought.

Sophie Lancaster was another teenager killed for being different

We don't know yet if Brianna was killed for being different, and the police have asked that people stop speculating as to motive as doing so could prejudice any case.

Quite.

The mental gymnastics required to equate being concerned about the welfare of children (and women) with wishing trans children dead is quite astounding.

That seems to be the conclusion in some quarters, however.

The trouble is, people who have genuine, credible concerns about the safety and dignity of females - sometimes borne from personal experience - are being labelled transphobic and worse.

Nobody on this thread has been anything other than respectful and upset at the murder of a child, which is particularly horrific given it seems to have been committed by two other children. And nobody has misgendered Brianna, or been antagonistic. Yet this thread has been highlighted on social media as 'proof' of how transphobic MN is. Women posting here are, in part, the TERFs being referred to on that banner. Nobody here would disrupt a vigil for a dead child. Every poster on this thread is in agreement that this is a terrible, awful tragedy. Yet all over SM TERFs - that is, people who have spoken eloquently about their concerns, and never ever wished harm on any trans person - are being held responsible, as a group, for Brianna's murder.

It's not the same the EDL not being welcome at BLM at all. And I think you know that, really.

Brianna's death was a tragedy as are the deaths of every teen that are happening on an almost weekly basis. We need to learn why children are killing children
^^
This.

There's currently a documentary presented by Jermaine Jenas on iPlayer called 'Teenage Knife Crime' if anyone is interested. It's depressing and disturbing. It talks about how kids in Nottingham as young as 13 are getting involved in gangs because they feel there's nothing else in life for them.

I would say with reference to this, that kids who feel vulnerable are carrying, and this can go badly wrong in various ways - including having their own knife used against them. They carry because they perceive a threat, which may or may not be there.

Kids ultimately carry because the system has failed them at some point - either through lack of education, lack of opportunity, lack of SEN need provision, lack of mental health support, lack of adequate anti-bullying tackling or inadequate tackling of extremism in school. Or a combination of multiple factors and multiple forms.

With reference to this case, the trans debate itself is rife with a whole host of extremist views and aggressive online influences. None of which are pretty. They aren't exclusive to either pro or anti trans sides.

I will also stress as part of this, there is a third grouping which is more about safeguarding and measured steps which is concerned about these various extremist elements and the consequences of not managing / balancing needs (including a backlash against already vulnerable people). This case is liable to inflame tensions at a time where we need level heads and sanity rather than pouring petrol on the emotions.

Is it going to encourage a bunch of kids to carry because they 'no longer feel safe' because this case stirs things up? How does that help?

And this is precisely why I feel strongly we need to not get carried away and let the police investigate and encourage calm.

I don't think vigils really do any of that. They are more liable to drive the emotional responses.

Nobody on this thread has been anything other than respectful and upset at the murder of a child, which is particularly horrific given it seems to have been committed by two other children. And nobody has misgendered Brianna, or been antagonistic. Yet this thread has been highlighted on social media as 'proof' of how transphobic MN is. Women posting here are, in part, the TERFs being referred to on that banner. Nobody here would disrupt a vigil for a dead child. Every poster on this thread is in agreement that this is a terrible, awful tragedy. Yet all over SM TERFs - that is, people who have spoken eloquently about their concerns, and never ever wished harm on any trans person - are being held responsible, as a group, for Brianna's murder.

This. This horrific murder was committed by children. Women who disbelieve in gender identity ideology are not responsible and it wouldn't be acceptable to suggest any other group of people were, just because they spoke up for their own rights as a disadvantaged group. Sex is a protected characteristic in the Equality Act for a reason, and though it goes both ways, the majority of claims for discrimination and harassment are brought by women. Because women face barriers in society.

Very well put.

There are ways to express ones concerns, and ways not to.

I'm sure the BNP and EDL (or whatever the same far right people are calling their groups nowadays - I've slightly lost track) would say they have concerns for the safety of white British people; they point to the Asian paedophile grooming gang scandal just as vigorously as some point to Isla Bryson while citing concerns for women's safety.

Just as the far right is strangely quiet on the topic of white paedophiles, so a certain brand of feminist is strangely quiet about other issues in prisoner safety - like prolific male rapist Reynhard Sinaga being held alongside males, or women who have killed women being held alongside women. They focus on the minority group they perceive to be a threat.

There was another thread on MN where Brianna was repeatedly misgendered, though that thread was deleted, but the posters are still around. Neither of us know who is on MN, nor what they would do offline.

Repeatedly framing a minority group as being a threat to safety is a dangerous thing to do; even if you would not wish physical harm on that minority group, it emboldens those who would and makes them feel their actions are a proportionate response to a threat.

This is the sort of thing that's being said about MN on twitter re this case.

Of course suggesting that TERFs are responsible for Brianna's murder is stirring up trouble.

Saying that posters here have said Brianna 'deserved it' is reprehensible and blatantly untrue, and yes, designed entirely to whip up trouble.

Repeatedly framing a minority group as being a threat to safety is a dangerous thing to do

Ironic, given the above screen shots.

I may have missed posts but I don't think this thread was hijacked. Some of us have responded that we are supportive of safe spaces, fairness and safeguarding for females/all young people and equally appalled and shocked at a young life taken like this.

This.

It's perfectly possible - and perfectly understandable - to feel both.

Mmm

How she deserved it because she's trans?!!

I am willing to bet no one here said that.

What a disgusting accusation. And apparently no one is point scoring

a certain brand of feminist is strangely quiet

Would you expect them to discuss male prison safety on the feminist board? How do you know?

Eresh you silly sausage, feminists shouldn't be so female centred, did you miss the memo

How she deserved it because she's trans?!!

I am willing to bet no one here said that.

I saw several of the deleted threads while most posts were standing and I didn't see anything of that nature. Some "misgendering", yes, because people's core beliefs about sex don't change when there has been a tragic murder. I agree there is a time and a place to argue about that but equally there were lots of people using the thread to attack MN feminists for a murder that has nothing to do with them. So they all turned into unseemly bunfights, and as this case is an ongoing investigation it was prudent for them to be shut down.

Will the GC posters show some respect, and take the discussion on rapists, toilets, paedophiles and knife crime to other threads?

This thread was here to share info on the vigils for Brianna.

Whatever your views on trans people, it’s not appropriate or helpful to have those discussions here on this thread.

Just as the far right is strangely quiet on the topic of white paedophiles, so a certain brand of feminist is strangely quiet about other issues in prisoner safety - like prolific male rapist Reynhard Sinaga being held alongside males, or women who have killed women being held alongside women. They focus on the minority group they perceive to be a threat.

I'm quiet about "other issues in prisoner safety" because I think they are being managed appropriately in the prison estate.

I can't think of a way to protect male prisoners from the violence of other male prisoners, other than what already happens (different categories of prison, solitary exclusion)

Same applies to female prisoners.

However housing male and female prisoners together causes specific issues. Men are so much more violent than women, including sex offences, abd the womens estate is not set up to cater for that level of violence.
Noone wants babies being conceived and born in prison and that's a likely outcome of housing males and females together.
And why expose female prisoners to unnecessary increase in risk of sexual assault? We know males perpetrate 98% of sex offences, the easiest way to keep female prisoners safe is to keep them separate to males.

I can't see why on earth anyone thinks its an extreme view to keep male and female prisoners separate.

I'm sorry but so far we only know that Brianna was a victim of knife crime.

Nothing else.

The amount of knife crime and why it's happening will remain relevant EVEN IF the police decide it is a hate crime too.

The fact that it's so normalised to carry a knife, amongst kids isn't going to change because of whatever politics may or may not be present.

Brianna died because of a knife. If the knife wasn't there there wouldn't have been a murder.

The amount of knife crime and why it's happening will remain relevant EVEN IF the police decide it is a hate crime too.

Quite possibly some of the other knife crime murders among teens were some form of hate crime also.

Thank you for putting into words, I've been struggling to find the right ones. I'm ignoring all the nasties here, they can talk to themselves.

Thank you for being an excellent voice here 🥰

Interesting that mnhq have moved this to the petitions and activism board and not commented to say why.

Perhaps to avoid the bunfight that is the usual way of AIBU?