Fawcett Commission on Gender Stereotypes in Early Childhood: let MNHQ know what you think

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

As some of you have spotted, our founder Justine is one of the commissioners for the recently announced Fawcett Commission on Gender Stereotypes in Early Childhood.

We at MNHQ are pleased to be on the panel: over the years Mumsnet users have spoken a lot about how gender stereotypes affect children (and indeed adults), leading to independent campaigns such as Let Toys Be Toys and Mumsnet campaigns such as Let Girls Be Girls. This feels like an opportunity to dig deeper into the issues and hopefully contribute to some policy recommendations that will change the way we (as a society) approach gender expectations for children.

For more info on the Commission from Fawcett's Chief Exec Sam Smethers (including her thoughts on why the commission is concentrating on gender rather than sex) take a look at her recent guest post and discussion.

In advance of the Commission's first meeting, we'd love to have your thoughts on the following:

this outline of 'Eight Things You Need to Know About Sex, Gender, Brains, and Behavior' (co-authored by Prof Gina Rippon who will be presenting to the panel);

the Commission's literature review; and

the Commission's call for evidence.

Look forward to hearing what you think - the meeting is on Tuesday 21 May, so please let us have your thoughts before then.

Thanks
MNHQ

[BuzzShitbagBobbly]

2478 violent assaults and this is only the ones reported

I assume this includes those "violent incidents" where people liked a limerick or had episodes of "wrongthink" too?

God, only imagine if they put up a poster or wore a t shirt with some words from the dictionary on it.

[velourvoyageur]

Allison

Of course that's a very tragic figure, and I am genuinely sorry to hear that. However, it's very important to contextualise these things. Are you saying that these 148 people were murdered in the UK in the last 6 months? I assume this is what you're saying, because naturally we are talking about a UK-specific context here, since part of the discussion centres around the changes being made to UK law in recognition of the gender identity debate. If we are changing UK law to protect trans people, this is going reflect trans people's experience of living in the UK, and not living elsewhere. Murders of trans people in the UK in the last 10 or so years have occurred at a rate of 1-2 per year, I believe, so this would be a hugely alarming rise in numbers.
And have you ascertained that every homicide among these 148 was motivated by hatred of trans people, or were they motivated by a variety of factors? If you are going to use this tragedy to back up your argument, as I said, it's really important to be extremely careful and scrupulous in doing so, otherwise you could come across as insensitive and opportunistic.

As for the rest of your post: I can well imagine that male-bodied people who identify as trans and who are assumed to be of the female sex (i.e. who 'pass') face prejudice because it's erroneously assumed that they'll be able to have children. However, this applies to such a small number of trans-identifying people (due to the number of variables all having to line up in one person - passing, childbearing age bracket, your employer not knowing they're trans) that I can't agree with you that a significant number of male-bodied people are suffering from sexism of the same nature that is faced by women.
So I fail to see why you're using this to argue that resources reserved for protecting women's rights should be shared with this group - our concerns just don't overlap enough. I recognise that the huge and well-established global network that is feminism appears very handy and well-equipped to fight the battles of others, but actually we simply don't have enough to go round. Some social movements are suited to this kind of goal diversification but feminism is not.
Then, If you don't pass, then I can't see which issues we share. If you're talking about being punished for being gender-nonconforming, of course both sexes are affected by this, but not in the same ways. Men being punished for being 'feminine' isn't the same thing as women being punished for not being 'feminine' enough and if you can't see any difference between the two, then I'm sorry but you simply don't understand the issue. I'm not saying one's more serious than the other - I'm saying we need different ways of tackling both and the answer is not self-ID.

[RowanMumsnet]

Thanks for all your thoughts and links and references - we will read and digest. @Allison10 as an MN user any thoughts you have about the stuff linked in the OP would be welcome too.

[RowanMumsnet]

Thanks for all your thoughts and links and references - we will read and digest. @Allison10 as an MN user any thoughts you have about the stuff linked in the OP would be welcome too.

[Hullygully]

but what I do see from some comments on this thread is hostility and some bigoted and quite frankly ill informed comments against trans women

This is a lie, MN have strict guidelines on this. Stop making accusations and personal attacks against others on this forum, it breaks talk guidelines. Women are absolutely hostile to sex and gender being used interchangeably, to gender stereotypes and to our rights being taken away. We do not and will not apologise for fighting to maintain existing rights in law, or for firmly repeating our boundaries. We are entitled to them, we are entitled to privacy and dignity. You are not entitled to rename us. We are women. Don’t call me a ‘genetic woman’ thank you.

I have copied and pasted what the Poster above me said in a much more eloquent manner than I could.

Me too.

[Allison10]

May i clear up a few of my comments. 148 trans murders was for Europe and North America. The figure for assaults was where the victim required hospital treatment as the injuries were so severe and was for Europe and North America. The figure of 48% of attempted suicide was only for the UK for last year and increasingly it was young people who were attempting to take their own life. I identify as female and always have since I realised from a very young age that I felt very different. But growing up in the 60s and 70s where being transgender was largely un heard of was very distressing for me and I went to the doctor to tell him how I felt, he had no idea of trans and was referred to the hospital where i had twelve months of therapy and electric shock treatment to " cure " me all extremely unpleasant. Nine years ago I attempted to take my own life. All I am asking is for some enlighted debate paticulary around young children who maybe experiencing questions over their gender expression

[EmpressLesbianInChair]

The figure of 48% of attempted suicide was only for the UK for last year and increasingly it was young people who were attempting to take their own life

I'm sorry you've had such a difficult time, Allison. But if your figures are taken from Mermaids or Stonewall you'll be relieved to hear they're inaccurate. fairplayforwomen.com/?s=mermaids+suicide

All I am asking is for some enlighted debate paticulary around young children who maybe experiencing questions over their gender expression

Yes, I think we all agree with that. No child should be medicalised or told that there's something wrong with their body because of the way they present.

[BuzzShitbagBobbly]

148 trans murders was for Europe and North America. The figure for assaults was where the victim required hospital treatment as the injuries were so severe and was for Europe and North America.
Again, sources please.

The figure of 48% of attempted suicide was only for the UK for last year and increasingly it was young people who were attempting to take their own life
And again, this is false and extremely irresponsible. Did you read the link I shared to prove that?

All I am asking is for some enlighted debate paticulary around young children who maybe experiencing questions over their gender expression
Maybe like...let kids be who/wear what/live life like they want, without telling them their physical body is wrong and needs changing; and putting them on untested, lifelong medication and performing radical surgery on healthy bodies? That kind of enlightenment? If so, we agree. Let kids be kids.

Please don't be so rudely presumptive to come here and tell us we are discussing it wrong.

[OrchidInTheSun]

Shall we get back to the topic at hand? It's been a really interesting read and I'd hate for this thread to be derailed.

[WeepingWillowWeepingWino]

Alison women (the adult human female kind) are murdered in the UK at a rate of 2 a week - so around 100 a year. 102 women killed a year in the UK alone.

Whilst every murder is an appalling crime, are you serious comparing 102 women killed in the UK alone a year with 148 transwomen killed across the whole of Europe and North America? Are you??

[Allison10]

I said that 148 this year alone, there have been two trans murders in the UK this year todate. To add to the increase in assaults in the UK against trans women I was assaulted last year by a married guy who didn't understand the word that no means no because I refused sex with him, I didn't report it as frankly it's not worth it😔

[borntobequiet]

Electric shock therapy (ECT) isn't fun, but it did genuinely cure my postnatal psychosis/depression when the drugs/talking therapy/being told to pull myself together didn't work. Many women spend much of their lives in considerable distress as a result of their biology. Suicide is one of the more common causes of death for pregnant and post partum women.
www.tommys.org/pregnancy-information/im-pregnant/pregnancy-news-and-blogs/suicide-leading-cause-death-new-mothers
I think it's rather extraordinary that these statistics are not better known.

[borntobequiet]

i meant to add that the above is the sort of thing the Fawcett Society should be concerning itself with, not gender nonsense.

[OrchidInTheSun]

Allison - you sound like you're having a difficult time. I think it would be worth starting your own thread to get some support.

Thanks for posting the links RowanMumsnet. I can understand the concerns that women have posted about the FS but I will be contributing my thoughts before Tuesday. I have a huge amount of time for Professor Rippon so I'm looking forward to reading that.

[velourvoyageur]

Allison, I'm sorry for what you have been dealing with. At the same time, I really think an apology wouldn't be misplaced here. Can you not see that your use of these figures is very irresponsible?
Let alone using irrelevant statistics to make your argument seem more plausible, the 48% figure, as noted by other posters, has been conclusively debunked. It simply should not be used when you take into account that we're talking about 48% of 27 self-selecting participants. You'd have to have been living under a rock not to know that its relevance has been robustly contested.
Suicide contagion is a real phenomenon and so I do wonder about the intentions of those who continue to back up their claims using that particular suicide figure when so many have raised concerns regarding its legitimacy. If you know it's dangerous to tell someone that because of their protected characteristic (something they can't change) they're more likely to commit suicide, wouldn't you make absolutely 100% sure that you know what you're talking about?

[WeepingWillowWeepingWino]

148 this year alone (so nearly half way through the year) so say 300 a year.

You are (still) seriously comparing 300 across 2 continents with 102 in the UK alone? In the US alone 4 women are killed Every Single Day. 1460 a year.

In the UK a transwoman is more likely to be a murderer than to be murdered.

[JAPAB]

Surely if there were no gender stereotypes, there would be no need for anyone to be transgender?

There would be if the unproven blanket assumption about trans people - that gender stereotypes are the cause of dysphoria - is incorrect.

For then you could remove all the classics about boys liking blue and girls liking pink etc, and you would still get people who have an inner sense of themselves as being other than what it "ought" to be, that this body part is wrong / alien and that another body part would be more right and natural, and etc etc etc.

[JAPAB]

but what I do see from some comments on this thread is hostility and some bigoted and quite frankly ill informed comments against trans women.

People often deny that there is transphobia on Mumsnet, but if making unproven negative and insulting assumptions about a group of people is prejudice/phobia, then here it is rife.

But glad to see that MN will, on the panel, not get into those assumptions and just stick to the stereotypes in and of themselves.

[WeepingWillowWeepingWino]

not all trans people (particularly children) have dysphoria. Stonewall's own definition makes that clear. Having read many an account, it is clear that gender stereotypes and expectations have a big impact on a lot of trans identifying people's perception of themselves. This is especially an issue for girls. Who the Fawcett Society should be centreing.

[Allison10]

I am aware of one trans women whilst in prison murdering a fellow inmate but this is the only source I can find so you're comment is completely incorrect

[WeepingWillowWeepingWino]

data with all the original source stats here: fairplayforwomen.com/trans-murder-rates/

Can you please provide the same for your assertions and also acknowledge that 300 transwomen murdered a year across 2 continents is no comparison to the number of women murdered a year?

[Datun]

From what in an gather the Fawcett Society absolutely do see the problem with gender. But they're not yet brave enough to condemn its fiercest proponents. Or even acknowledge who they are and how they are using gender. In fact, they are going along with it, seemingly for a quiet life.

It's ironic that they are lacking this courage, but maybe they will get there in the end.

Allison

There has been a wealth of research into crimes against trans people on the UK.

In summary, although worldwide the transgender community experiences unacceptably high murder rates this varies dramatically depending on where someone lives. Fortunately in the UK transgender people are very rarely victims of murder and are at no more risk than the average person living here.

www.google.com/amp/s/fairplayforwomen.com/trans-murder-rates/amp/

[WeepingWillowWeepingWino]

Allison in short, if you are going to march onto a thread discussing the effects of gender stereotyping on women and girls with your attempts to alter the topic of conversation, you'd better be ready to back up each and every assertion you make.

Don't think you can get away with lying to women here. You can't. It's not Twitter.

[Ereshkigal]

the US alone 4 women are killed Every Single Day. 1460 a year.

It's not, it's between 3000 and 4000. The number you give is the number of women killed by their partner. This for 2016:

Of the 19,362 homicides that the CDC reported in 2016, 3,895 of the victims were women, according to Security.org's report

www.cbsnews.com/news/us-homicide-rate-female-victims-of-homicide-rose-by-21-percent-according-to-study-2018-12-6/

[sackrifice]

People often deny that there is transphobia on Mumsnet, but if making unproven negative and insulting assumptions about a group of people is prejudice/phobia, then here it is rife

Yes, people need to stop saying that mumsnet is full of 'hostility and some bigoted and quite frankly ill informed comments about trans women'.

It's men that we have the issue with. Genetic men.