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Fawcett Commission on Gender Stereotypes in Early Childhood: let MNHQ know what you think

182 replies

RowanMumsnet · 15/05/2019 11:29

Hello

As some of you have spotted, our founder Justine is one of the commissioners for the recently announced Fawcett Commission on Gender Stereotypes in Early Childhood.

We at MNHQ are pleased to be on the panel: over the years Mumsnet users have spoken a lot about how gender stereotypes affect children (and indeed adults), leading to independent campaigns such as Let Toys Be Toys and Mumsnet campaigns such as Let Girls Be Girls. This feels like an opportunity to dig deeper into the issues and hopefully contribute to some policy recommendations that will change the way we (as a society) approach gender expectations for children.

For more info on the Commission from Fawcett's Chief Exec Sam Smethers (including her thoughts on why the commission is concentrating on gender rather than sex) take a look at her recent guest post and discussion.

In advance of the Commission's first meeting, we'd love to have your thoughts on the following:

this outline of 'Eight Things You Need to Know About Sex, Gender, Brains, and Behavior' (co-authored by Prof Gina Rippon who will be presenting to the panel);

the Commission's literature review; and

the Commission's call for evidence.

Look forward to hearing what you think - the meeting is on Tuesday 21 May, so please let us have your thoughts before then.

Thanks
MNHQ

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WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 17/05/2019 11:35

apologies Ereshkigal, i had a feeling I wasn't getting that right, and also that that figure was too low SadAngry.

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Ereshkigal · 17/05/2019 11:36
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Ereshkigal · 17/05/2019 11:38

No worries, I'm not sure exactly where the lower number comes from and how the other women are killed, but since the trans figure is not filtered for only "trans related" killings I don't think it's accurate to filter the female figure.

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WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 17/05/2019 11:43

I was looking at something on femicide which I think, as you said, was specific to murders by partners.

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BuzzShitbagBobbly · 17/05/2019 11:46

TRAs have sunk to a new low when they are trying to out-die murdered women.

Yet I remain unsurprised by their behaviour.

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RowanMumsnet · 17/05/2019 11:51

@Allison10 So sorry to read about your assault. We hope you're OK (apologies for sounding pat, but we really do). As other users have said, you might find it useful to seek support on a separate discussion thread.

We know the debate around the accuracy of numbers of assaults, murders, suicide attempts and suicides among trans people is a hot topic but to be honest it also feels like one that we've hosted and continue to host a lot on Mumsnet and it would be really helpful to keep this discussion on topic - the impact of gender stereotypes in early childhood - rather than having it sucked into being a discussion about self-ID.

I'm sure absolutely everyone agrees that any number of violent assaults on trans people is too many, just as any number of suicides of trans people is too many. And that the same goes for all people in general.

Any chance that any further discussion of the figures could go elsewhere? We're really keen to get views from as many MNers as possible on this thread, which won't happen if disappears down this particular tangent (not to suggest the topic isn't important)

Thanks again to those who're posting their thoughts

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Ereshkigal · 17/05/2019 12:01

I was just correcting an inaccuracy. I'm sure we all want to be accurate.

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magoria · 17/05/2019 12:27

RowanMumsnet can you see the way you have just yourself separated out trans and then lumped women with all people in general?

I am sure it was just a turn of phrase however it goes to show exactly what is being argued about and why these threads go the way they do.

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Allison10 · 17/05/2019 12:28

Thank you for your comment and support and yes the assault on me by a married straight guy was destressing. My attempted cure by health professionals through therapy and electric shock treatment and my attempted suicide is not unusual amongst transgender folks. All I was trying to do was to present an alternative comment that should we (trans) be allowed to live our lives without threat, abuse, ridicule, protests, and being that we exist 😔😔😔

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WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 17/05/2019 12:32

And no-one is denying that.

You're derailing. Seen it many times. Always the same.

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BuzzShitbagBobbly · 17/05/2019 12:35
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Datun · 17/05/2019 12:37

Thank you for your comment and support and yes the assault on me by a married straight guy was destressing.

Male violence is indeed at catastrophic proportions. Hence feminism.

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borntobequiet · 17/05/2019 12:39

I was a child in the 1950s and 1960s. Gender stereotyping was rife, just look at a Ladybird book from that time. Toys, clothes, academic and behavioural expectations were heavily sex based. But ROGD, for example, was unknown. Differences between then and now include social media, hormone based and easily available medication and a culture of individualism. I don't think "gender" stereotyping has got a lot to do with it, frankly.

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R0wantrees · 17/05/2019 12:48

The data on sexual abuse is clear.
Its overwhelmingly committed by males.
Victims are most likely to be females and males also sexually assaulted.
Children also sexually abused and the overwhelming majority of perpetrators are male.

See also violence.

Its male pattern abuse.
#sexmatters

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ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 17/05/2019 12:48

If MNers know of evidence of gender stereotypes being used by early-years professionals (in any field) in a reductive way then please do flag them up.

I'm sorry but you're deluded if you think people aren't hyper aware of GNC children atm and champing at the bit to label them trans. No ones saying being GNC makes you trans, but that's the message that's being internalised by parents and educators.

From the feminism boards

"My 14yo dd is struggling to figure out where she fits in at the moment, she's more of a "tomboy" but will happily put on a playsuit and leggings etc etc.... You know. Usual stuff kids go through as they try to figure out what they like and suits them.

However, she's been hanging around with a girl who wants to transition, her parents are very vocal about it all and buying her a binder and demanding her school etc refer to her as her "true name" as well as other things.

She's just not understanding how you can be just yourself. She's very much falling into stereotypes and saying how I dress dd6 in dresses etc... Thus is what she chose when getting dressed that morning, she had jeans on the day before.

School is not helping this.

They've told me that I'm "damaging her" by refusing to take her to the doctors and persueing a "transition" she's 14! I'm seriously waiting for a phone call to social services for not taking her to the doctor as its apparently "emotional abuse" ffs.

This has all started since school told her she could (her exact quote) "become a proper boy and do all the boy stuff" I asked her what is "boy stuff" she had no answer."



"I've just had a very weird encounter with my DH, our DS is nearly 3 and is into anything and always loves to copy his older sister. His sister wanted her nails painted and he then wanted his done as always. DH never has a problem with this usually, but he said 'no'.

I obviously told him not to be ridiculous but he went onto explain that he doesn't want to encourage that behaviour as someone will want to chop his cock off as he'll be seen as trans. I wanted to tell him that was ludicrous but it did make me think twice. That's not good is it? That I'm encouraging gender stereotyping when I have been discouraging it all my life."



"DS is only 4 but hes always been into 'feminine' stuff. His nursery for fucks sake, just last year pulled me aside and asked me if I thought he was trans and said they could provide support. Why? Because he favours the princess dresses when its time to play with clothes hmm

I put nail varnish and that on him when he asks like, why not. But it does worry me a bit that seeing how he is rather feminine for a boy, some 'well meaning' people will start the ball to blockers rolling.

They kept insisting that I should go to the GP and get a referral hmm I asked referal for what, not liking enough blue things and superheros?! And it went downhill from there."



"The trans agenda is making people really wary. It’s actually discouraging parents from allowing their children to mess around and experiment because of fear they will be labelled as trans and all that comes with it.

I shouldn’t say this because of trolling, but one of my girls announced to us this week that she wanted to be a boy because “they are stronger and not scared of spiders”.

She was disabused of that PDQ. On the other my DS was dressing up in outgrown ballet gear & pretending to be a girl, encouraged by his older sisters. DD15 was then having a panic that they shouldn’t give him ideas."

From Janice Turners article "Trans ideologists are spreading cod science"

"You know you are a man because you walk like a man and like “manly” things. A listener questions why this lecture is based upon stereotypes and is told “you’re going too clever”. Such cod science would be laughable if it weren’t so pernicious. The audience is told to watch out for little boys in tutus."

The audience, of course, being a group of school teachers who are supposed to bring these ideas into the classroom.

From the LGBT kids board on MN (which is overwhelmingly about gender identity issues)

"DD started identifying as a girl at around three and a half. DS was around four and a half when he started identifying as a boy. Before that DS talked a lot about when he would be a mummy, though that he would turn into a girl when he got older, wanted long hair (which he still has), had mostly female friends (which he still does) loved pink (which he still does) and liked wearing dresses, including to nursery.

Then, over the space of around a month, he started referring to himself a boy, talking about how he was like daddy, played a lot less at fairies and a lot more more at superheroes (essentially the same game anyway) and went from being pretty much genderless to being very clearly a boy."



"I have a dd who wants to be a boy, she saw a tv add last year for a programme about sex changes and said 'that's what I want mummy'. She's now 10 and some days she wants to be a boy and other days a girl, we just go with the flow and let her be who she wants to be. She often wears boys clothes, would never wear a skirt or anything pink, her best friends are boys and she has no interest in what the girls are doing."



"A test my friend told me about was to hold two conversations in the presence of the child, one about trucks (or diggers) and the other about a recent endorsement of Cheryl Cole's of a new Max Factor mascara applicator.
Whichever conversation interests the child the most will most likely point you in the right direction in so far as their gender (culturally) is concerned."



"Try to live as boy as much as you can to have a feel as to what it's like. Cut your hair, wear only boy clothes, try to walk, talk and act like a boy. Try to talk to girls you don't know as a boy would. Try to talk to other boys you don't know like a boy would. Wear makeup that will make your face look more masculine (dark shadow under jaw to make it look stronger, shadow on brow to make it look heavier, etc). Use the boy's toilets. Show very little emotion outwardly. Live as much as you can as a boy, and if you find that's how you really feel normal and natural then look into medically changing yourself. But live it first!"



"My 7yo daughter (and yes we use pronouns ATM) has lived as a boy since she was 3/4. Wears nothing but clothes bought in the male section and plays with stereotypical boys toys.
We have been totally child led and supportive and now we are heading to junior school am on the edge- do I see the GP and get a referral or carry on as we are?"



"A year ago he started wearing makeup which again, not a problem. It started with him wanting to do his eyebrows and wear foundation which progressed into eyeshadow and lipsticks. Lately there’s been two occasions where he bought girls clothes “for a friend’s birthday” and then I’ve discovered he still had the clothes and he started wearing them himself (off the shoulder type tops and one was cropped). He’s started wearing fake nails and wants to get his nails done at a salon and at this point I’m at a loss. I could accept that he’s transgender but I don’t want to suggest anything to him/not sure how to approach the subject."

Children's books which are being promoted to schools

10,000 dresses

"In her dreams, Bailey is a young girl. Every night she dreams about magical dresses. Unfortunately, when Bailey wakes up, nobody wants to hear about her beautiful dreams. This is because Bailey is a boy and shouldn't be thinking about dresses at all."

I am Jazz

"From the time she was two years old, Jazz knew that she had a girl's brain in a boy's body. She loved pink and dressing up as a mermaid and didn't feel like herself in boy's clothing."

Are you a boy or are you a girl?

A book about "Tiny" who is neither a boy nor a girl because they like playing with both girl and boy toys. They have a sister called Fiona though who is clearly supposed to be a girl - Fiona has long blonde hair whilst Tiny has short hair, Fiona dresses up as a nurse while Tiny dresses up as a doctor.



Transgender Trends Queering the classroom review of the No Outsiders Project



Internet forums encouraging people to question if being GNC means they're really trans (referred to as "hatching eggs")

Have attached an "egg bingo card" which is supposed to help you identify and "hatch" closeted trans people. Includes "Tomboy", "periods are gross", and "prefers male jeans because they have pockets".

GNC children are being policed by adults and educators atm to see if their love of "girls toys" or "boys toys" makes them trans, and lots of parents of GNC kids are terrified. Strangers online are deliberately goading and grooming GNC kids into thinking they're trans. Fawcett Society needs to get their head out the sand about this sharpish.

Fawcett Commission on Gender Stereotypes in Early Childhood: let MNHQ know what you think
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R0wantrees · 17/05/2019 12:55

Mermaids training for teachers transcribed by Mumsnetters:

//docs.google.com/document/d/1NDOMlo2aEpBl2ySfKdEWCb1H94tZciKiqUffjH1ku0Y/edit?usp=sharing

//docs.google.com/document/d/1aeFV0T6j4PXvm1xZBS_50oSJYV-_gO8YMoFjKjNA_9Y/edit?usp=sharing


Please will MNHQ & FAwcett Society consider this very seriously as the impact on educators, policy makers and most importantly children is very significant & its relevent to the commission.

See also Janice Turner Times:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-ideologists-are-spreading-cod-science-m8n0pdbq3?shareToken=1f61e88bc67e115972089fe6b0e621c2

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EmpressLesbianInChair · 17/05/2019 12:56

Having read the literature review and the Eight Things You Need to Know, I think I agree with just about all of it. Reading Delusions of Gender and later, listening to Gina Rippon, I was shocked at how early gender stereotypes start affecting children.

Empowering children to recognise that they can think, play, dress etc however they want, while still being a girl or a boy, and also encouraging them to accept that in others, can only be a good thing and will hopefully lead to gender becoming increasingly irrelevant & eventually fading away. If this Commission can achieve that then I approve.

(But Stonewall, Mermaids & Gendered Intelligence won't)

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R0wantrees · 17/05/2019 12:57

Observer
'Must monsters always be male? Huge gender bias revealed in children’s books

A thieving duck in Peppa Pig is one of the few female villains in the 100 most popular picture books. An Observer study shows that, from hares to bears, females are mostly sidekicks'

www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/21/childrens-books-sexism-monster-in-your-kids-book-is-male

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R0wantrees · 17/05/2019 12:59

This is one of the most striking illustrations of how adults enforce and project sex stereotypes onto very small children.

Worth watching:


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R0wantrees · 17/05/2019 13:17

Challenging sex based stereotypes:

This video by MullenLowe London brings us career day at a primary school in England. ​Students are asked to draw a firefighter, surgeon, and fighter pilot​, and​ are quite surprised when the women who do these real​-​life​ ​occupations join them in class.

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Ereshkigal · 17/05/2019 13:23

Some interesting links, thank you to R0 and ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving

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ohfuckoffalready · 17/05/2019 13:24

@ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving great list, thank you for compiling.

I do hope this research isn't derailed into "what about the males who want to be female". They have distinct issues which are nothing to do with women's issues.

I hope it does look into "why are these things being more and more enforced as male or female" when for so long we were moving away from that crap.

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R0wantrees · 17/05/2019 13:30

BBC program 'No More Girls & Boys' had a great deal to consider about the impact of sex-based stereotyping evident in Primary Class of 7 year olds:



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R0wantrees · 17/05/2019 13:33

Predators/Prey on childrens' clothes:

"Animals, aggression and entitlement: Boys' clothes on the High Street
CLOTHES MAKE THE MAN, THEY SAY. BUT WHAT EXACTLY IS THE HIGH STREET TELLING OUR CHILDREN ABOUT WHAT A MAN IS?
(extract)
There is a lot of discussion on the sexualisation of girls clothes (and more on that later). But, and not to be a ‘whatabouter’, there is a flip side to this poisonous coin. While little girls’ clothes prioritise the passive, many little boys’ clothes are packaging up a pile of macho aggression and entitlement.

Slogans on sweaters tell boys they are cool, brave, legendary even. And the prints and designs are pretty prescriptive too. Once you’re past vehicles, it’s almost invariably fangs and fighting, even for the tiniest clothes-wearers." (continues)
sonshinemagazine.com/magazine/animals-aggression-and-entitlement

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Allison10 · 17/05/2019 13:36

I feel very sorry for you Shit Bag ( excellent name by the way )
Such a negative and one sided view

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