Fawcett Commission on Gender Stereotypes in Early Childhood: let MNHQ know what you think

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

As some of you have spotted, our founder Justine is one of the commissioners for the recently announced Fawcett Commission on Gender Stereotypes in Early Childhood.

We at MNHQ are pleased to be on the panel: over the years Mumsnet users have spoken a lot about how gender stereotypes affect children (and indeed adults), leading to independent campaigns such as Let Toys Be Toys and Mumsnet campaigns such as Let Girls Be Girls. This feels like an opportunity to dig deeper into the issues and hopefully contribute to some policy recommendations that will change the way we (as a society) approach gender expectations for children.

For more info on the Commission from Fawcett's Chief Exec Sam Smethers (including her thoughts on why the commission is concentrating on gender rather than sex) take a look at her recent guest post and discussion.

In advance of the Commission's first meeting, we'd love to have your thoughts on the following:

this outline of 'Eight Things You Need to Know About Sex, Gender, Brains, and Behavior' (co-authored by Prof Gina Rippon who will be presenting to the panel);

the Commission's literature review; and

the Commission's call for evidence.

Look forward to hearing what you think - the meeting is on Tuesday 21 May, so please let us have your thoughts before then.

Thanks
MNHQ

*I know FS are a bit crap because of the whole trans thing but gender critical LTBT are on the commission too and Maya Forstater (recently fired for tweeting that TW are not W), is part of that campaign so we should give it a chance. It might do some good.^

They're not that gender critical. Recently they retweeted some gender identity nonsense.

Birds

They're not that gender critical. Recently they retweeted some gender identity nonsense.
Oh that's a disappointment.

Oh that's a disappointment.

It is. But that's all the more reason to have MNHQ in there.

@JAPAB

I hope this panel manages to stay on track and concentrate solely on the stereotypes themselves without getting into unproven blanket assumptions about trans people.

Yes, noted and thank you - from what we've seen so far, unproven blanket assumptions is specifically what this is supposed to tackle, but absolutely take your point

@Birdsfoottrefoil

Got stuck on the first question asking about my gender. It would be helpful if instead of asking if I was a ‘woman’ or ‘man’ they instead asked if I was irrational, kind, liked pink, dresses, being seen as a sex object, lower pay, and taking on nearly all the caring role, or whether I was logical, a leader, ambitious, liked science, jeans and cars.

If the survey is annoying you please do have a look at the questions and documents in the OP instead/as well...

I didn’t say it was annoying me. But are you saying that wasn’t what the first question was asking? Which sex of stereotypes we identify with?

*set of sex stereotypes

@Birdsfoottrefoil

I didn’t say it was annoying me. But are you saying that wasn’t what the first question was asking? Which sex of stereotypes we identify with?

Sorry, I must confess I hadn't actually linked the Call for Evidence with the survey. Ahem. Please ignore me

I had a few comments on the literature review.

“152 At this very early stage, children are yet to recognise the relevance of gender or self-identify as any given gender. However, starting at a young age, parents create a “gendered world” for their young infants through the provision of different toys, clothing and furnishing. 153”

The literature review conflates gender and biological sex throughout causing confusion and complication. It also legitimises the notion of self identification of gender which undermines the whole premise of gender stereotyping. If you can choose your gender based on your activity preferences why is there any issue with stereotypes- surely you can just choose the stereotypes that suit you or choose a mixture if you identify as non-binary. If the commission wants to steer clear of the controversy they should avoid all mention of self identification and fix the sex/gender terminology.

“Uk Initiatives
Within the UK, efforts have been made by civil society and actors within the education profession to challenge gender stereotypes in education. A number of organisations such as Let Toys Be Toys, Stonewall, the NUT, and Zero Tolerance have developed guides for early years practitioners and schools which give advice and ideas for practice on how to challenge restrictive stereotyping in the early years.145 These include thinking about how you speak to children, using inclusive language, talking about gender roles, providing a variety of role models for children, using ‘unisex’ toys, games and activities, using pictures and stories which depict men and women in non-traditional roles, encouraging children to use all toys and play area, thinking about rewards and sanctions supporting staff and having conversations with families.”

In the above we see mention of Stonewall providing guides for early years practitioners. My concern would be that some of the literature and messages that Stonewall encourage are steeped in their own gender stereotypes - messages that boys know they are really girls because of the toys or clothes or hair they like are visible throughout children’s books that talk about trans identities and are intended for schools. Also the use of ‘inclusive language’ these days is often code for not using terms like girls or women and instead using demeaning biological terms such as ‘menstruators’ or ‘cervix havers’. Programmes to eliminate sex stereotypes can also be used to eradicate the concept of sex which never ends well for women or girls. Notably sexism which is the eventual result or sex stereotyping gets barely a mention. Evidence from those single sex girls schools which actively work to contradict stereotypes is also surprisingly lacking.

I completely missed that bit. Stonewall? Stonewall's guidance says that anyone who doesn't feel comfortable with their assigned sex-role stereotype is trans!!! www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/glossary-terms#t

Surely if there were no gender stereotypes, there would be no need for anyone to be transgender?

The calls for evidence is too broad! Each individual question contains so many elements that it would take an essay to answer them. How on earth is it going to be analysed.

Here is evidence of Nursery provision being influenced by trans ideology:

“2105 Interview with Susie Green [Mermaids CEO] for Day Nurseries:

Transgender children: 'I first realised Jackie was different when she was 18 months old'
With more and more children seeking medical treatment for gender identity issues on the NHS, can a child be too young to know who they really are and what can nurseries do to help?
(extract)
“I first realised Jackie was different when she was 18 months old,” says her mum Susie Green.

"Although she was my first child, I had lots of nephews and nieces and Jackie just didn’t seem to behave like them.

“She’d go into my wardrobe, put on dresses and she even put my bra on at 18 months.

“The nursery staff were telling me Jackie was different when she went there at two and a half years old.”

Cross-dressing in the dressing up box

At nursery Jackie never played with the boys, always took a female role in the games played and would treat the soft toys like babies or pretend to have tea with them.

“She couldn’t wait to get into the dressing up box. She’d come out as Snow White with a jumper on her head and the arms trailing down to make it look like she had long hair.” (continues)

www.daynurseries.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1571947/Transgender-children-How-nurseries-can-support-those-with-gender-identity-issues”

The significance of hair length in child development of understanding their sex is long standing and was explained by Kate Alcock(Senior Psycology lecturer Lancaster University) This is part of a long accepted and understood process whereby a child makes sense of the world by classification.

on well established understanding of how children develop an understanding of their and others' sex so the difference between boys and girls:

Its from the Lancaster Resister's recent meeting on Safeguarding, gende & children:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1122570548549226496.html

The Fawcett Society would do well to contact Kate Alcock for expert guidance on child development.

Miranda Yardley has done work on gender stereotypes & the impact on children:

Common Threads And Narratives of Transgender Children And What This Means For Our Lesbian And Gay Populations
POSTED ON 5TH MAY 2017
This is some original research I did for a larger project which for reasons of space I shall be referring to from that project.
mirandayardley.com/en/common-threads-and-narratives-of-transgender-children-and-what-this-means-for-our-lesbian-and-gay-populations/

If MNers know of evidence of gender stereotypes being used by early-years professionals (in any field) in a reductive way then please do flag them up.

Not quite early years but my primary age daughter has short hair and wears comfortable and practical clothes. She says children always ask 'are you a boy or a girl' but she repeatedly had adults who don't know her assume she is a boy and actually argue with her when she says 'no, I'm a girl with short hair'.

I have lost confidence in the Fawcwtt Society and wonder what is the actual point of this review. We already know what their conclusions will be and who has the dominant voice in thier thinking

Yes. But it’s still better that we’re involved than that we’re not, I think.

Rowan, I’ll post my thoughts on the linked content today in my lunch hour.

As a trans women I believe that the Fawcett Commission is not best placed to help either genetic women or trans women, but what I do see from some comments on this thread is hostility and some bigoted and quite frankly ill informed comments against trans women. I face many of the same issues you do but in many cases they are magnified from employers, health service, housing and a constant threat of violence in every day life. Yet another trans women was murdered this week making it now over 148 this year alone and with 2478 violent assaults and this is only the ones reported. Statistics released early year showed that in the UK last year transgender 48% of transgender folks attempted suicide not thought about but attempted. Transgender has always been here and will always will be but it is only recently that we are becoming more visible and more confident in coming out, 99.9% of times we are not a threat we just want the ability to get on with our lives and to be happy.

Re: 16th May, 10.27 post - most people are not using gender in that way. Sadly it's a niche definition - hard to think of anyone mainstream who'd use it. Star academics like say Toril Moi might use it but even she would explain that she's using it in this sense first instead of assuming that people will somehow know she's not talking about womanhood etc being a feeling. Just gets very confusing when people are trying to hold a conversation using terms which have several meanings since we don't have access to each other's minds!

but what I do see from some comments on this thread is hostility and some bigoted and quite frankly ill informed comments against trans women

This is a lie, MN have strict guidelines on this. Stop making accusations and personal attacks against others on this forum, it breaks talk guidelines. Women are absolutely hostile to sex and gender being used interchangeably, to gender stereotypes and to our rights being taken away. We do not and will not apologise for fighting to maintain existing rights in law, or for firmly repeating our boundaries. We are entitled to them, we are entitled to privacy and dignity. You are not entitled to rename us. We are women. Don’t call me a ‘genetic woman’ thank you.

As a trans women I believe that the Fawcett Commission is not best placed to help either genetic women or trans women, but what I do see from some comments on this thread is hostility and some bigoted and quite frankly ill informed comments against trans women

There is no need to add 'genetic' to the word women.

I face many of the same issues you do but in many cases they are magnified from employers, health service, housing and a constant threat of violence in every day life.

That is no because employers are worried you will have a baby and take loads of time off on maternity leave though is it? Not the same issues at all are they? Your issues are because you are trans, not because you were born female.

Statistics released early year showed that in the UK last year transgender 48% of transgender folks attempted suicide not thought about but attempted

Is this the statistic that is from a survey on people who already had mental health issues? So completely biased?

99.9% of times we are not a threat we just want the ability to get on with our lives and to be happy

As a genetic male [your term], you pose the same threat as every other male on the planet to women and girls.
Why are we not allowed to get on with our lives and be happy?
Why must we now have another fight to keep genetic males [your term] out of our safe spaces?

Why must we now have the Fawcet Society investigating the effects of Stereotypes whilst simultaneously ignoring the effects of stereotypes in their actual research? Pointless...

Yet another trans women was murdered this week making it now over 148 this year alone and with 2478 violent assaults
Sources please. If this had actually happened, TRAs would have been ALL OVER social media to use it for their own means.

Statistics released early year showed that in the UK last year transgender 48% of transgender folks attempted suicide not thought about but attempted.
COMPLETELY DEBUNKED FALSE CLAIM. Shame on you for trying that on on (and yet more shame on TRAs for using suicide in that way). www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

But hey, thanks for plopping by just to tell us we're the wrong ones. Duly noted.

but what I do see from some comments on this thread is hostility and some bigoted and quite frankly ill informed comments against trans women

This is a lie, MN have strict guidelines on this. Stop making accusations and personal attacks against others on this forum, it breaks talk guidelines. Women are absolutely hostile to sex and gender being used interchangeably, to gender stereotypes and to our rights being taken away. We do not and will not apologise for fighting to maintain existing rights in law, or for firmly repeating our boundaries. We are entitled to them, we are entitled to privacy and dignity. You are not entitled to rename us. We are women. Don’t call me a ‘genetic woman’ thank you.

I have copied and pasted what the Poster above me said in a much more eloquent manner than I could.