Fawcett Commission on Gender Stereotypes in Early Childhood: let MNHQ know what you think

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

As some of you have spotted, our founder Justine is one of the commissioners for the recently announced Fawcett Commission on Gender Stereotypes in Early Childhood.

We at MNHQ are pleased to be on the panel: over the years Mumsnet users have spoken a lot about how gender stereotypes affect children (and indeed adults), leading to independent campaigns such as Let Toys Be Toys and Mumsnet campaigns such as Let Girls Be Girls. This feels like an opportunity to dig deeper into the issues and hopefully contribute to some policy recommendations that will change the way we (as a society) approach gender expectations for children.

For more info on the Commission from Fawcett's Chief Exec Sam Smethers (including her thoughts on why the commission is concentrating on gender rather than sex) take a look at her recent guest post and discussion.

In advance of the Commission's first meeting, we'd love to have your thoughts on the following:

this outline of 'Eight Things You Need to Know About Sex, Gender, Brains, and Behavior' (co-authored by Prof Gina Rippon who will be presenting to the panel);

the Commission's literature review; and

the Commission's call for evidence.

Look forward to hearing what you think - the meeting is on Tuesday 21 May, so please let us have your thoughts before then.

Thanks
MNHQ

[borntobequiet]

Filled in the survey. Complicated and rambling questions, not sure how they intend to analyse the answers. I don’t think they’ll like mine.

[Hullygully]

What everyone else said.

They need to support females.

Everyday there is more evidence that no one gives a fuck about women:

Men controlling wombs: Ohio, Alabama etc etc

Gay men not supporting lesbians

Sportswomen thrown under the bus

One day the Emperor's New Clothes will fall off and everyone will go, Wow, that was weird huh? That mad few years when we championed dysphoria (but only of one kind that privileges men of course).

That mad few years when people introduced Jesus into women's wombs.

That mad few years when women could lose athletic scholarships because men had the feelz

At least I hope it goes like that. It certainly won't unless allegedly female supporting groups fulfill their fucking remits truthfully and energetically.

[Mummaofmytribe]

The Fawcett Society has been well and truly infiltrated. I'm feeling absolutely depressed today. Women are under siege in every direction

[MsMcWibble]

Don't see the point. The Fawcett society already believes that gender stereotypes are what makes a woman or they wouldn't think that transwomen are women.

[Hullygully]

I've done the survey, but as to what can be done to challenge "gender" stereotypes other than overthrow the patriarchy, I'm at a loss.

[RowanMumsnet]

Thanks for all your responses - we know there are really strong feelings about this among lots of MN users.

Before this debate/argument/however you characterise it caught fire, though, Mumsnet users had expressed concerns for years about the effects of gender stereotypes on children. We are hopeful that this commission is a good-faith effort to address the baleful impacts of gender stereotypes on children and on the adults they will grow up into. That's why we are taking part. And the more you can tell us about the specific questions we as commissioners are asked to address, the better we can represent the nuance of your views.

And in a desperate (and quite possibly wrong-headed) attempt to explain why we think the exploration of gender is a legitimate subject for inquiry, here's what Caroline Criado-Perez has to say about it in Invisible Women:

'The female-specific concerns that men fail to factor in cover a wide variety of areas, but three themes crop up again and again: the female body, women's unpaid care burden, and male violence against women... men forget them [in the context of data collection], because men do not have female bodies... Throughout I will refer to both sex and gender. By 'sex' I mean the biological characteristics that determine whether an individual is male or female... By 'gender' I mean the social meanings we impose on those biological facts... One is man-made, but both are real... sex is not the reason women are excluded from data. Gender is... the female body is not the problem. The problem is the social meaning we ascribe to that body, and a socially determined failure to account for it.'

This isn't to pressure any individual to engage with the Commission or the OP - of course it's absolutely your right to express your thoughts about it - but if anyone reading would also like to address the questions in the OP/engage with the Commission's themes we're still interested in hearing those thoughts too.

Thanks
MNHQ

[WeWantJustice]

Another vote for "what is the point?"

If you can't even define what a girl is (and yet doctors have no difficulty in knowing which foetuses to abort because they're the wrong sex) how can you fight gender stereotypes?

When parents are being told that their boy child liking Frozen may be a sign that that child may have been born in the wrong body and not believing that is abusive, how can anyone fight sexist stereotypes?

[Hullygully]

Hi Rowan

I don't think anyone is arguing that gender as a word used to denote societal ascribings of characteristics exists, but (for me at least), gender is spectacularly unhelpful as it is generally used interchangeably with sex, and has has been adopted and conflated with sex to permit men having the feelz to say that they are "real" women.

[RowanMumsnet]

@WeWantJustice

Another vote for "what is the point?"

If you can't even define what a girl is (and yet doctors have no difficulty in knowing which foetuses to abort because they're the wrong sex) how can you fight gender stereotypes?

When parents are being told that their boy child liking Frozen may be a sign that that child may have been born in the wrong body and not believing that is abusive, how can anyone fight sexist stereotypes?

We expect that the Commission will be absolutely starting from the point that a boy liking Frozen is to be celebrated/tolerated in exactly the same way as a girl liking Frozen - that's the fundamental position behind the Commission's work. And to the extent that any doctors, teachers or other advocates are interpreting a liking for Frozen as evidence of being born in the wrong body, we (as in MNHQ) would absolutely represent to the Commission the MN consensus that that would be nuts.

If MNers know of evidence of gender stereotypes being used by early-years professionals (in any field) in a reductive way then please do flag them up. Also of course any examples of good, careful work being done to unpick gender stereotypes and encourage early-years children to feel confident expressing themselves.

[Mummaofmytribe]

That statement just further muddies the water. Even if you feel your gender is female, if your sex is Male you won't be subject to the issues unique to a woman's body. For example you will never find yourself being denied an abortion, because you can't be pregnant. You will never have double xx chromosomes.
All children should be free to play with what they want, wear what colour they like. I don't think any reasonable mother thinks otherwise.
Transgenderism is not the logical and automatic final result to allowing a gender stereotype free childhood. We don't need men to be aware of M to F transgender folk in their data collection. We need them to listen to WOMEN

[WeWantJustice]

Rowan, what is Fawcett's definition of the following words:

Boy
Girl
Man
Woman

?

Without proper definitions, it's impossible to know what we're all talking about.

[EmpressLesbianInChair]

Thanks for engaging with us on this, Rowan. I remember when you were Policywonk

By 'gender' I mean the social meanings we impose on those biological facts... One is man-made, but both are real... sex is not the reason women are excluded from data. Gender is... the female body is not the problem. The problem is the social meaning we ascribe to that body, and a socially determined failure to account for it.

I think a big problem here is the multiple definitions of gender. We agree with Fawcett that gender as a social construct / legal & social ways of disadvantaging women / sex-role stereotypes is a bad thing. All fine so far. But we see the concept of 'gender identity' and 'female brains' as a bad thing too. And Fawcett apparently don't.

My workplace are doing a lot on gender equality at the moment & they didn't understand why I was so wary of getting involved until I explained my experience of 'gender equality' and how it could be used to disadvantage women. One of the examples I used to get my point across was the Fawcett Society / 50-50 Parliament event with the idea of the mixed-gender, single-sex parliament.

We expect that the Commission will be absolutely starting from the point that a boy liking Frozen is to be celebrated/tolerated in exactly the same way as a girl liking Frozen - that's the fundamental position behind the Commission's work. And to the extent that any doctors, teachers or other advocates are interpreting a liking for Frozen as evidence of being born in the wrong body, we (as in MNHQ) would absolutely represent to the Commission the MN consensus that that would be nuts.

That's good to know. Can you also tell the Commission that the MN consensus is that Gendered Intelligence & Mermaids are dangerous bodies which should not be allowed anywhere near children, & certainly nowhere near primary schools?

[Mummaofmytribe]

EmpressLesbianinChairyes, exactly what you just said!

[Ali1cedowntherabbithole]

Page 2 is not a good start

[LangCleg]

Thanks for engaging from me too, Rowan.

However, we have a zero sum conflict here.

You cannot simultaneously fight "gender stereotypes" while accepting "gender identity" as a defining concept of self.

Until Fawcett gets the fence splinters out of their arses and choose, anything they do or say will be utterly fruitless. Anything they do or say is undermined before it's even started.

We know this. You know this. They know this.

[EmpressLesbianInChair]

You cannot simultaneously fight "gender stereotypes" while accepting "gender identity" as a defining concept of self. Until Fawcett gets the fence splinters out of their arses and choose, anything they do or say will be utterly fruitless. Anything they do or say is undermined before it's even started.

If MNHQ are happy to make that clear to the Commission and also say that MNers recommend the Transgender Trend Schools Resource Pack, then that's terrific.

[littlbrowndog]

Exactly Lang

[RowanMumsnet]

Thanks Empress

Our hope is that the consensus that (in your words) 'gender as a social construct / legal & social ways of disadvantaging women / sex-role stereotypes is a bad thing', combined with the focus on early years, will mean that this Commission can think about the specific harms caused by gender stereotypes without getting into the (frankly) toxic topic of gender self-ID. (Toxic in the sense that it's perceived as being dangerous/difficult to address.) The Commission starts from the premise that gender stereotypes are harmful.

This narrow focus - while it excludes some areas that are strongly contested, to say the least - could mean finding some agreement and constructive ways forward in this specific area, at least, and we at MNHQ think it's worth our time to participate in what feels like a genuine good-faith effort to move the ball towards the goal-line a bit.

On 'women's brains' - have a look at the link in the OP to the neuroscience position: this again is the Commission's starting point - very happy to hear any thoughts about it.

[RowanMumsnet]

Thanks also Lang (took me so long to post that I missed yours)

On this point:

'You cannot simultaneously fight "gender stereotypes" while accepting "gender identity" as a defining concept of self. Until Fawcett gets the fence splinters out of their arses and choose, anything they do or say will be utterly fruitless. Anything they do or say is undermined before it's even started.'

It's not our job at MNHQ to advocate for Fawcett's position (anyone interested can read Sam Smethers' thoughts in the thread linked in the OP). It's worth saying though that the Commissioners are pretty wide ranging (eg Sarah Ditum is also on the panel) and the recommendations at the end of the work will be a consensus arising from the Commission's work and won't be wholly owned by Fawcett - it will be co-owned by all the commissioners who stay the course and sign off on the final result. In participating in that process, we really want to represent MNers' views - and to do that we need to hear your thoughts.

[Ereshkigal]

The thing is we need an organisation like the Fawcett Society to centre and stand up for the rights of women, toxic though that might be. It feels like they've picked the side that's the least hassle for them. It feels like a betrayal. "Courage Calls to Courage"? Nah, too difficult.

[EmpressLesbianInChair]

In participating in that process, we really want to represent MNers' views - and to do that we need to hear your thoughts.

My thoughts are that if you're on the panel to represent our views rather than to validate Fawcett's position, that will be a Good Thing.

And if the panel is starting off with the view that children should be taught that gender stereotypes are pernicious nonsense, that in itself should hopefully go some way towards countering the groups who go into schools & tell children that being a girl or boy is dictated by their personality rather than their biology.

[Ereshkigal]

But thank you Rowan, it's not your fault.

[Messyisthenewtidy]

Sex = the biological bit. Gender = the cultural bit

The biggest problem today is the rise of evolutionary psychology to link the two and to give old sexism a new shiny scientific veneer. So boys do better in STEM because of biology and women do more housework because of biology.

It used to be religion determining those gender roles, now it's bad science and people lap it up because that's what they want to believe.

I know FS are a bit crap because of the whole trans thing but gender critical LTBT are on the commission too and Maya Forstater (recently fired for tweeting that TW are not W), is part of that campaign so we should give it a chance. It might do some good.

[JAPAB]

You cannot simultaneously fight "gender stereotypes" while accepting "gender identity" as a defining concept of self.

You can if you do not conflate the two, or make unproven assumptions about self-ID. Just as you wouldn't with other forms of human identity. For example Scottish stereotypes and someone self-IDing as Scottish are two different things. And you can tackle ethnic stereotypes without this impinging upon ethnic IDs.

Unless if, as I say, you make the unproven assumption that someone only IDs as Scottish because they know they like wearing kilts and listening to bagpipe music or somesuch. There is no need to make this unproven assumption in order to go after the stereotypes in and of themselves.

Well, I hope this panel manages to stay on track and concentrate solely on the stereotypes themselves without getting into unproven blanket assumptions about trans people.

[Birdsfoottrefoil]

Got stuck on the first question asking about my gender. It would be helpful if instead of asking if I was a ‘woman’ or ‘man’ they instead asked if I was irrational, kind, liked pink, dresses, being seen as a sex object, lower pay, and taking on nearly all the caring role, or whether I was logical, a leader, ambitious, liked science, jeans and cars.