Fawcett Commission on Gender Stereotypes in Early Childhood: let MNHQ know what you think

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

As some of you have spotted, our founder Justine is one of the commissioners for the recently announced Fawcett Commission on Gender Stereotypes in Early Childhood.

We at MNHQ are pleased to be on the panel: over the years Mumsnet users have spoken a lot about how gender stereotypes affect children (and indeed adults), leading to independent campaigns such as Let Toys Be Toys and Mumsnet campaigns such as Let Girls Be Girls. This feels like an opportunity to dig deeper into the issues and hopefully contribute to some policy recommendations that will change the way we (as a society) approach gender expectations for children.

For more info on the Commission from Fawcett's Chief Exec Sam Smethers (including her thoughts on why the commission is concentrating on gender rather than sex) take a look at her recent guest post and discussion.

In advance of the Commission's first meeting, we'd love to have your thoughts on the following:

this outline of 'Eight Things You Need to Know About Sex, Gender, Brains, and Behavior' (co-authored by Prof Gina Rippon who will be presenting to the panel);

the Commission's literature review; and

the Commission's call for evidence.

Look forward to hearing what you think - the meeting is on Tuesday 21 May, so please let us have your thoughts before then.

Thanks
MNHQ

[Birdsfoottrefoil]

Allison10 do you have any views on gender stereotypes in children? Do you agree that boys should be encouraged to recognise that it is perfectly ok and masculine for boys to have long hair, be kind, wear whatever clothes they like including princess dresses, play with dolls etc and that this in no way stops them being boys?

[Ereshkigal]

IIRC it's because a transactivist called her a shitbag.

[ohfuckoffalready]

The problem is, the moment you unpick "what makes you trans", it is ALL about stereotypes. What else is there after all?

The very premise is "being male or female is this set of behaviours and eternal appearances".

If it was anything else they wouldn't be able to "transition" because you can't change biological sex.

[FloralBunting]

Excellent compilation posts earlier. I was just looking through some very old photos of my children, way back when we were part of a very rigid conservative Christian group, and it was fascinating to see my girls dressed in very pretty prairie dresses, holding baby dolls, and then suddenly a picture of my son at around maybe two months old, in a full football kit with a ball placed at his feet. He wasn't even able to confidently hold his own head up, let alone kick a ball, but there he was in full kit. There are no photos of the girls dressed similarly as babies, even though they did have some kits when they were older and began expressing interest.

What interests me about that is the we were very much, with the girls who are older, being deliberate in teaching them 'girl things' but we had begun moving away from that particular group when my son was born, and yet the stereotyping was still unthinking and ubiquitous.

[WeepingWillowWeepingWino]

There is a photo of DH and his older brother and sister in the 1970s when they were kids. He and his brother are holding what look like submachine guns and his sister is holding a doll. It's worth noting that DH is the least blokey man you can think of, without an ounce of violence in him - he never even beeps his horns!

[BuzzShitbagBobbly]

Allison10 I feel very sorry for you Shit Bag ( excellent name by the way ) Such a negative and one sided view

Thanks for specifically calling me out on the thread! #FeelingSpecial
(It's one word though. Please don't violently mis-name me like that again, thanks

I'm sorry you find facts and realism to be negative and one-sided. I can't help that you are are trying to stick to your many, many wilful misunderstandings of those facts.

(And yes, Erish is right. I was christened it by one of your fellow TRA cohort, so you have at least that in common with them. What are the chances?!)

[Ereshkigal]

I was a toddler/pre-schooler in the late 70s and I think the clothes were less gendered. I had some brown cord dungarees with a little car on. I think my brother (b 1979) got them next, the lucky thing :)

[FloralBunting]

Yes, my own childhood was much less gendered than my kids has been, and I was born mid-seventies.

And of course, what's extra intriguing about my early treatment of my girls from the perspective of the issues this thread is looking at, is that we were raising them to be frilly and domestically focused because we genuinely believed that was the true nature of the inner female essence. Because we were religious fruitloops. This is a really bad basis for arguing that there is anything innate about gendered stereotypes, and yet I don't think I've been alive at a time when gender stereotypes were seen as more indicative of reality by a mainstream culture than now.

[BernardBlacksWineIcelolly]

Thanks for the videos and evidence on here it's been so interesting.

I'll have a go at the survey this evening

[Ihaventgottimeforthis]

Apart from anything else, that consultation asks for basically a set of essays describing our individual views, thoughts & feelings.

How on earth they are going to gather any reasonable data from that god only knows.

[ChocAuVin]

Another historical supporter of the Fawcett Society who has lost all faith 🙃

[ChocAuVin]

@weepingwillowweepingwino - digression, but: Ponderosa reference?

[WeepingWillowWeepingWino]

certainly is!

[ChocAuVin]

Excellent 😊

[sackrifice]

Such a negative and one sided view

What I don't understand and perhaps you can explain.

Why don't you want your issues to be separate and completely different to genetic [your term] women's?

You have issues, women have issues. The trans community would have women stood behind them, supporting them, campaigning for them, if they would only stop appropriating and playing the 'bigger victims than you' card.

I just don't understand it. Calling women bigots and [the acronym that cannot be named] just shows off your male socialisation in all it's brightest colours.

Ask for help and you'd get it.
Scream that you need more help than anyone else on the planet and besides if you don't get help then suicide/murder/you women are witches/whatever else you can throw at people - ain't gonna get owt is it?

[FemaleAndLearning]

I saw the Fawcett survey a couple of weeks back and completed it. I still follow the Fawcett Society on Facebook as a way of seeing how off track a so called women's campaign group can be.

I wrote about Cbeebies and the dreadful sexism in its programmes. All the lead roles of active characters are male etc. I also wrote about having more gender fluidity in the 80s.
Finally I wrote about how I believe transgenderism reinforces social gender stereotypes particular those organisations that endorse the pink brain/blue brain rubbish and the Barbie/gi Joe rubbish. I am not a woman based on my hair, make up and what is in my wardrobe, I am so much more than that.
Let kids be kids and encourage them to do whatever their passion is regardless of their sex.

[ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving]

I am not a woman based on my hair, make up and what is in my wardrobe, I am so much more than that.

Quite. I watched a Blaire White video the other day and someone had commented "you're so kind and beautiful, you're a woman in every way that matters"and I just thought fuck you. Because it's never been more crystal clear that that's what society thinks of us, that our value is in our ability to be kind and beautiful and nothing else.

The sad thing is that it literally took me less than an hour to pull all those examples together, that was just what I could find on MN while my kid were napping. There isn't an inch of this that isn't based on sexist stereotypes. I mean, look at these symptoms of gender dysphoria the NHS list:

• disliking or refusing to wear clothes that are typically worn by their sex and wanting to wear clothes typically worn by the opposite sex
• disliking or refusing to take part in activities and games that are typically associated with their sex, and wanting to take part in activities and games typically associated with the opposite sex
• preferring to play with children of the opposite biological sex

And constant references to "often this is only a phase" as if it's something kids should grow out of. Like this behaviour is acceptable as long as it's only temporary. What's wrong with a girl wearing "boys" clothes? Why does it matter if they don't grow out of it? We're literally encouraging gender non conformity with one hand and pathologising it with the other! What's the point of telling boys "you can wear pink" if we follow it up with "but not too much or for longer than 6 months otherwise it's off to the Tavi with you". Like, what is the "allowed" amount of non conformity before you magically transform into the opposite sex? In the spectrum of personality from "masculine" to "feminine", how far are men and boys allowed to go before they get kicked out of the man club? If someone could give me a definitive figure that'd be great because my son likes flowers and bunnies and glitter and I'd rather he not end up castrated on account of that. I honestly feel like I'm living in a nightmare atm.

So sorry but I don't think "fight stereotypes" and "affirm trans people" can exist in the same world view. I'll still do the survey, but I think FS are about as well placed to investigate this issue as a young earth creationist is to investigate evolution.

[Candidpeel]

Just copying this over from the other thread:

I am worried that "anti-stereotyping" will be the next "period poverty", fluffy apparently pro-women campaign used to undermine the definition of sex and focus on gender identity.

Exhibit 1: Let Toys Be Toys having trouble standing up to the gender ideologues

Exhibit 2: Girl Guides new peer education programme on 'breaking free' of stereotypes //www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/programme-and-activities/peer-education/what-is-peer-education/breaking-free/ (take the quiz..... it starts off with the difference between sex and gender...... and then never mentions sex again. You can see where this is going....)

Exhibit 3: The Fawcett Society Commission ....

Exhibit 4: The Women and Equalities Dept getting into the stereotyping issue www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3588280-The-Government-is-looking-at-Gender-Stereotyping-too-Im-suspicious-about-this-bandwagon

.... it think the move they are playing is

1. Gender and sex are different...
2. Lets talk about gender (and never mention sex again)...
3. Gender stereotypes are bad...
4. Why are you trying to police the boundaries of womanhood by saying that a person with a penis, beard, male pattern baldness, wearing jeans and a sweatshirt has any less right to be in women's spaces than any other woman???

The Fawcett Commission includes Sarah Ditum and Justine, LTBTs (who knows where they stand now?), as well as someone from Stonewall and Government Equalities Office as well as probably a bunch of people who have not been paying close attention to the rise of gender ideology in all of this //www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/gender-stereotypes-in-early-childhood-the-commission

I think we should keep a close eye on this!

[R0wantrees]

Why are you trying to police the boundaries of womanhood by saying that a person with a penis, beard, male pattern baldness, wearing jeans and a sweatshirt has any less right to be in women's spaces than any other woman

Candidpeel See Mhairi Black's speech in House of Commons yesterday:
twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/1129061250095353856

I think parts of it are relevent to your concerns.

[Candidpeel]

Thanks R0wantrees. I saw that. It sounded like she had been taking dictation from Stonewall.

[OldCrone]

So sorry but I don't think "fight stereotypes" and "affirm trans people" can exist in the same world view.

Exactly. As far as children are concerned, some people want to label them 'trans' for not conforming to stereotypes for their sex. It is all about stereotypes.

For adults, trans is either about stereotypes, or it is about a delusion (a belief in a gendered soul which has somehow been born in the wrong body), or it is a mental illness based on hatred of parts of one's body, similar to body identity integrity disorder. None of these things are positive.

[Birdsfoottrefoil]

oldchrone you missed out sexual motivation

[OldCrone]

You're right, Birdsfoottrefoil. How could I forget the fetishes like AGP? I'm still struggling to see anything that's positive about the movement, though.

[Ereshkigal]

So sorry but I don't think "fight stereotypes" and "affirm trans people" can exist in the same world view.

Agree. I'd like to know how any of the undoubtedly well meaning people on the panel can square that circle.

[JAPAB]

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving, the symptoms of something and the causes of it are two different things.

That a particular medical body would use someone acting in a way that is common (in a particular society) for one sex to act, to support a diagnosis of GD is not the same as declaring that the stereotypes caused that initial inner sense of self as being "the other sex".

I mean, if you lived in a society where 90% of females wore dresses, it is not going to be a surprise if a male with GD will want to wear them.

You can argue the point that they shouldn't use stereotypes to provide evidence that someone has GD, but all this means is that a particular medical body are doing things wrong. This does not enable you to deduce that trans people are only trans because of stereotypes.

And FWIW I agree that some are far too quick and are jumping the gun when they immediately infer trans/GD from the slightest atypical behaviour. But again, this just means some people are doing things wrongly. Nothing here proves that the entire group of trans people are that way due to gender stereotypes.