Archie Battersebee case-thread 2

[whynotwhatknot]

ongoing from previous thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4573803-archie-battersbee-case?page=40

And certainly her grief is no excuse for what she has put her son and hospital staff through.

I feel very sorry for the hospital staff, who are being vilified simply for doing the correct thing for a patient.

I feel for those poor nurses and doctors who are being accused of trying to murder Archie.
Imagine having to face that every day x

I wouldn't use the word corpse myself because of the emotive nature of the word, but he is legally dead. It's very sad, but he is.

No, he's not legally dead.
They can no longer do the tests on him to confirm the criteria for this is met. The decision is made on his best interests, not his brain death.

It makes little difference in reality, because on the basis of medical evidence his brain will not be able to recover, he will.never fain any awarenesses, and further time in a ventilator is futile and an affront to his dignity. He is being kept between life and death, and nature should be allowed to take it's course.

But legally, he is still alive.

The behaviour of some in the so-called army has been utterly despicable. And the mother attacking the medical staff online is abhorrent. She knows the truth.

I hope for the dignity of Archie he is finally allowed to rest and that the medical staff receive counselling for the trauma they've been put through on many levels.

I hope the parents find peace but I agree that grief is no excuse for the behaviour that's been displayed (I could say more but would probably get deleted for it).

i understand a court ruled his date of death as 31st May

I'm sure this isn't what Archie would want. This article is from over a month ago. He looks so thin in the picture. They are accusing the hospital of starving him. But he is producing a lot of urine and diarrhea. He is not able to hold on to his bodily fluids and nutrition. They really do need to let him go.

newdailycompass.com/en/archie-battersbees-mother-stop-them-slaughtering-my-son

His dad has been taken ill likely because of the stress.

I agree with this.

There have been similar cases over the years and every single time there is a 'army' which doesn't help the cause and attacks the medical professionals.

I really really feel for the family but the abuse medical staff get is not right.

Absolutely. Because of Hollie's actions they've been obliged to provide futile, demeaning medical care to a child whose brain is rotting inside him, and as if the trauma of that macabre shitshow isn't enough they're being vilified for their pains. It's disgusting how the medical staff have been treated.

sorry about the vote i didnt know it wa active when i posted

She needs to let him go. It’s so awful. I can’t imagine her pain but it’s completely baffling how she trusts the opinions of online idiots more than the expert and dedicated clinicians caring for him.

There are no words for the utter contempt in which I hold these vultures revelling in the family’s grief and misery dressed up as concern when it’s really just for their own entertainment. Same as for the Charlie and Alfie cases. Absolute pond life.

That’s unfair. One person reported she heard that the medical team had used the word ‘corpse’ and it’s unsubstantiated. Several people have pointed this out, and no one here has used it to refer to Archie at all.

Almost all posters have been overwhelmingly sympathetic to the awful situation Hollie is facing, despite almost as overwhelmingly feeling that her actions are poorly motivated and unhelpful, and that she is being influenced and funded by a group with an agenda of its own (which is for another thread, but is also highly relevant). It’s a very sensitive thread. The subject is desperately harrowing and is making many people deeply uncomfortable, but is the price of a just and fair society where laypeople have the right to challenge medical decisions, and medics must robustly defend them. All medics should be held to account and the fact that this process may be used by anyone, at any time is part of the process that protects us ALL from poor medical ethics and practice.

I’ve spent several hours reading both threads and while it’s truly, truly awful, I feel very privileged to belong to a group where it can be discussed so sensitively and where people are seeking (and receiving) such good information while forming an opinion, and to a society where the process of withdrawing the life support for a child is so robust, and where a parent can challenge a medical team and be treated fairly. It shouldn’t be easy, and a society should be judged on the rights it’s most vulnerable members have. I don’t think you get much more vulnerable than Archie and Hollie, and I’m heartened that Hollie has so much legal recourse, while being deeply saddened that there is no way to protect her from to toxic influence of the ‘Army’.

That decision was overturned on appeal

They now have 48hrs to take it to UCHR.

Totally agree

Its an awful case but the Mum is in denial and seems to say things have happened that actually havent. This reminds me a little about the young lad who was killed by the women who then disappeared off to the States.

The women in particular was obsessed with the women. Its almost as though she couldnt think of anything else. Her sole objective was getting the women to stand trial.

She had another child I believe and he seemed to be forgotton.

The Mum in this case has become ill with it all. Her MH is shot to pieces and all she can think about is keeping him alive at any cost.

It was remitted back to the HC to further consider best interests. At the CA first time, the family submitted that the judge should not have made the declaration of death on the basis of the scans and that the court should have moved on to consider best interests. This was not contested by the Trust, and it was remitted to consider best interests.

I'm not sure (haven't read to the end of the judgment yet) whether the declaration of brain death was formally withdrawn by the CA, but in any event, the current court proceedings are not on the basis that he is brain dead.

For all intents and purposes he likely is, or so close to it that it doesn't matter, but I don't think he's legally dead any more.

no one here has used it to refer to Archie at all.

Er, they have. On page one.

Fwiw I think the people who have spent the last few weeks camped out on the AA FB page speculating about distressing medical details and talking about themselves off the back of this case are pretty grim. But doing the same while eagerly awaiting a judgement to end treatment isn't an improvement.

Agree.

I understand mum is really struggling with this. His father is too and it seems it's led to a heart attack or stroke.

But to report the staff to the police because he's losing weight. She's basically accused them of neglect. These poor staff who do this day in and day out. I'm sure they've explained about over feeding because it's liquid and kidney function.

I'm also a little about how she goes on and on about his dignity but then posts pictures of him in an incontinence pad all over the internet. It's akin to posting your child on the lavatory.

I can't imagine how you process knowing your child either tried to end their own life or died due to a SM craze gone wrong. But it's just not fair to prolong Archie's life whilst his brain withers away to help them with this.

No, we're well past the brain stem tests issue. The Court of Appeal set aside the previous decision that Archie had died because there was no definitive medical evidence that he had. They moved instead to consider whether it is in his best interests for treatment to continue, and that is based on a whole range of issues that go much wider than the brain stem tests.

We simply can’t say that. If she truly believes what she is seeing, of course she will advocate for her child. Most people can be educated that she isn’t able to intepret what she is seeing, but poor Hollie has a huge number of influential (and wrong) people pushing her to believe that she is right, and the medics are wrong and also malicious. We can’t judge and shouldn’t judge her mental health and we can’t imagine what she is balancing. Her access to information is different to ours. We can’t assume she can’t make a decision because she is making a poor decision.

is H appealing again now?
to european court?

The people who wind parents up in these circumstances should be charged. Personally I’d argue the malicious communications act applies - it's designed to cause stress or anxiety.

I don’t think the mothers past should have anything to do with this.

I do think she’s now mentally unwell and needs help to process this.

I have a question to those people who have faith.
Do you think his soul is at peace or do you think he's in some kind of spiritual purgatory.
I've been wondering this as an agnostic who has no belief in what happens to our souls after death.
But to those that do, given that it's accepted that he's all but physically dead , does he need the machines to be turned off or has he already gone to another place.

Not intended as goady just a thought I'd been contemplating.

Yes, reading through to the end now, he wasn't formally 'resurrected' but the courts only consider the best interests in continuing treatment foe the living, not the dead (there is caselaw for this) and so on remitting it back to consider best interests, he must legally be still alive.

Ps: off topic but this has lead me to a fascinating rabbit warren of people trying to reverse being declared dead (usually good other reasons, not secure brain injury)

It's very sad, but his family need to get bereavement and trauma counselling and accept that he's not coming back. I just hope that the ECHR do the sensible thing and decline their application.