Archie Battersebee case-thread 2

[whynotwhatknot]

ongoing from previous thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4573803-archie-battersbee-case?page=40

Hollie was ill-advised that a discrepancy between the delivered breaths and the respiratory rate meant that Archie was breathing independently of his ventilator. Unfortunately it's more complicated than that.

If the hospital thought there was any chance of recovery, they would be doing everything to save him.

The thing I don't understand about the family wanting him to die of 'natural causes' is that there is nothing natural about a brain dead body being hooked up to a ventilator and being pumped full of drugs. Natural causes would be off the ventilator etc. If his brain has deteriorated to the point of coning then sadly a bed and other resources are being denied to another child who may well have a chance of recovery.

I was reading about the Alfie Evans case earlier, and in his case there were protests, and allegations of murder etc etc but two days after Alfie’s life support was removed his father made a statement that he wanted to build bridges with the hospital and work together for the best outcome for his son.

One can only hope the same could be possible here.

And the CLC lawyers need to be struck off. IMO.

Hang on so she has been claiming religion as being part of her opposition to switching off the machines yet her 12 year old wasn't even baptised?

I feel like there's a real lack of understanding here that not many of us had heard the terms used and yet are now repeating stuff we've learned in the last few days as if everyone should know this stuff - a recent post about coming for example : how many of us honestly would have known that before this case?
The family have clearly lost trust - that's why this has happened, not because Hollie isn't capable of understanding this stuff in less traumatised circumstances.
As for someone saying most people accept it with grace and dignity - again, this is happening because they don't believe the hospital are being honest. There's fault both sides here, with a huge helping of agendas on the part of the family solicitors. But if that letter with typos and poor phrasing is an example of the communications between them it doesn't shine the hospital in a great light.

*coning not coming ^^

I believe that whenever a child dies in "unnatural circumstances" there has to be a post-mortem and full investigation

You're quite right, but this applies to everone and not just children

In response to the query as to whether the police will do much investigating, I pretend no special expertise but have a friend whose son kiiled himself by hanging at 19 - and after the funeral the investigations were long and intensive. School and college records were reviewed, friends interviewed, and even several private family letters were read out at the inquest (though with a request that the contents shouldn't be reported)

I was told at the time that the Coroner's role was to establish the truth - nothing more, nothing less - and that their practise is to ensure nothing stands in the way of this

@OneFrenchEgg I think you're right. Sadly, as an ex neuro and ex ICU nurse, I know it all too well but it's amazing to read people's well meaning but very ignorant comments.

Thank you @Lougle I posted below but I have a lot of sympathy and have been in the position of being bombarded with new terms, processes, fear and mistrust of a hospital team. Luckily for us we had a resolution which worked out well but the huge stress, trauma, lack of sleep and nutrition can't be overstated and the impact this has and can compound any suspicions.
Also - the public face of Holly is interviews and court appearances. Whatever is vented in a private group hasn't materialised into any aggressive actions against the hospital that I've seen reported.

That makes sense @Puzzledandpissedoff

So it's being heard at court again tomorrow morning - which means the family will miss their last morning with him if they do rule life support should be withdrawn in the afternoon?

I feel if it does goes ahead that will be a real shock to them.

I feel like there's a real lack of understanding here that not many of us had heard the terms used and yet are now repeating stuff we've learned in the last few days as if everyone should know this stuff - a recent post about coming for example : how many of us honestly would have known that before this case?

Maybe not, although most laypeople understand that a brain that has lacked blood supply for months, was liquifying and where parts of it had dropped down to the lower spine was not going to recover.

Hollie was shown the images by a consultant and refused to believe they were Archie’s. She is accusing the hospital of trying to murder him, sedate him on the sly, claimed that the reason he is so poorly is mainly due to malnutrition and not the brain injury, posted a picture of a urinary catheter draining urine with nearby faecal staining and claimed that it was an arterial line. Sure she’s not medical, but everyone can distinguish between urine and blood. There have been further medical opinions sought and given and Hollie refuses to believe any of them.

The High Court judgment noted the lack of trust, but stated that there was no reason for this. The clinical outcome given to Hollie at the onset was bleak, and rightly so.

If we could see what Archie looked like now we would be horrified that he was still being kept “alive”. There hasn’t been an inconsistent clinical message, Hollie just hasn’t wanted to hear it.

@Puzzledandpissedoff thanks - the question came from me! I did wonder how far these inquests go to probe or whether they feel the family have suffered enough so would accept a narrative from them. Sounds like the investigations will be extensive, as it should be.

It's so important that the truth is told. If it was a online challenge (and I know there is intense speculation about that) then this needs to be highlighted and internet companies need to be held accountable. If it was a deeply troubled and unhappy boy, who sadly wanted to take his own life, this also needs to be investigated to see if lessons can be learnt / signs could have been picked up by SW or school etc.

And the CLC lawyers need to be struck off. IMO.

I think they can't be, because they're not solicitors or barristers. The Solicitors' Regulation Authority looked into them after they were seriously criticised by the courts in the Alfie Evans case, but reluctantly had to close the investigation down because they didn't come within their jurisdiction.

@Phos wasn't he baptised in hospital with his family fairly soon after it happened.

They have very deep pockets, who funds them, do you think?

I don't want to sound morbid, but if Archie's has technically passed away, then why isn't he decaying? His skin etc looks healthy, and surely he would smell if he wasn't alive?

I'm genuinely just trying to understand here.

I believe the most recent update (a very sweet one) was about his support worker agreeing to be his godmother.

Is there going to be a hearing? I think the DoH simply asked for the issue to be placed before the out of hours judge, which implies they're asking for a decision today.

Because the ventilator is pushing air into his lungs and that’s keeping his heart beating which is allowing his body to be oxygenated.

There hasn’t been an inconsistent clinical message

It seems Hollie's now claiming on FB that there has been:

"Archies medical notes it was noted Archies eyes were responsive on day 14 just before MRI at this hospital"
"How can this be if they told me he is brain stem dead on day 2?"

And you're very qwelcome, Crazycatlady83, but I can only comment on the inquest I know about rather than them all. That said, if there's a "protocol" for how they're done I can't quite see they'd follow it for one and not another?

I completely empathise with losing trust, I won’t go into my personal circumstances but I really do. They’ve have independent medical opinions from other hospital trusts - as detailed in court judgements - and the family still don’t believe it. They’re, understandably, affected by trauma and can’t see the wood for the trees.

I don't want to sound morbid, but if Archie's has technically passed away, then why isn't he decaying? His skin etc looks healthy, and surely he would smell if he wasn't alive?

Holly has previously said they (the staff) have the air conditioning on in Archie’s room and that “it’s freezing” and my first though was that they’ve done that to slow down the natural decaying process.

Ive seen video clips where there is a flash of his arm or leg but I haven’t seen any that show his face for quite some time whereas before it was common for her to do that. I imagine there’s a very good reason why she doesn’t show him fully in the videos anymore….

There hasn’t been an inconsistent clinical message

Not to us, with the benefit of lack of involvement and court case notes and newspaper reports.
But when he was initially transferred there was the suggestion of an operation which Holly perceived was then postponed by the new team to wait and see. We aren't privy to conversations and how well facts have been communicated to a very distressed family.

I just don't like the attitude that she shouldn't be using the courts or is somehow lacking dignity and grace for not accepting facts. Thank goodness we have a safety net outside absolute power within a hospital team. This isn't it, but it is essential for when abuses happen.

I don’t believe anything Hollie says. IIRC, from the High Court judgement, there was some pupillary response within a day or so but this stopped as his brain swelled.

When he hanged himself there would have been lack of blood flow to the carotid arteries, resulting in brain damage from lack of oxygen. There is further secondary damage as the dead and dying brain cells swell and release inflammatory toxins. Neonates who suffer lack of oxygen due to birth trauma are often cooled to deliberately try to minimise this secondary damage.

Either the High Court account of pupillary responses is wrong, or Hollie is. I fear this is along the lines of : he squeezed my hand, he cried with painful stimulus, he is breathing, he is looking at a teddy.

sorry i misread as saw the word government