Archie Battersebee case-thread 2

[whynotwhatknot]

ongoing from previous thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4573803-archie-battersbee-case?page=40

The whole case is so sad. Hollie isn’t willing or able to understand her child is effectively dead. She will never accept it. I suspect there will need to be a security presence during time time life support is slowly withdrawn.

But in Court anyway she has accepted it and its more about the manner of his death now. I know Court Hollie and Facebook Hollie day different things so hard to know which one to believe. Anyone who has mentioned this being said in court gets swiftly deleted.

Hope tommrow the right decision can be made. Surely they can't wait for him to have a cardatic arrest because how is that peaceful for them or him?

It's such a sad situation. I think they need to let him go but I fully understand why they don't want to.

She will likely be extremely conflicted, battling her logical side and her emotional side.

luna actual breathing shows up on the monitor and changes the shape of the pressure/flow and volume curves.

The ventilator is very sensitive and can pick up changes in pressure in the tubing but as a pp said it’s condensation/secretion related.

Hollie has claimed this before, btw, it was mentioned in the High Court hearing and she was told there were just secretions in the tube,

And also keeps support from the Army.

Think with this latest video if the decision goes against them tommrow then they'll be outcry on that page with him seen trying to breath as it's been put. They already see the Doctors as the enermy and the Judge as anti life..

Re previous thread comment.

I don't think posters are saying that 'this is what any caring parent would do'. On the contrary, I think most people are saying the opposite.

But most are saying that grief can take people in many different ways, including extreme denial. And that Archie's parents are facing the worst possible situation for any parent, sudden self inflicted death.

I hope I never face their situation. So I don't want to predict how I would respond, because I don't want to face the possibility

As I posted before, I have worked with people who believed that god would heal their child if their belief was strong enough.

Just imagine the guilt that raises in a vulnerable parent.

Actual breathing on a ventilator

This is the top reading on the monitor, and it shows the pressure. Actual breathing shows up as additional rectangles.

The picture relates to a ventilator setting where spontaneous breaths are assisted, but you get the picture.

I feel so sorry for Archie's dad, who I suspect accepts it's time for him to be allowed to pass (and has been for a while)

Surely they can't wait for him to have a cardiac arrest because how is that peaceful for them or him?

I think it's already been explained that there's no reason to suppose a cardiac arrest would be traumatic?

Obviously it can be in a living patient, but sadly that doesn't apply to Archie in any meaningful way

I hate to be sceptical but I do wonder whether the “breathing” announcement is on the back of dwindling support? Certainly what I have read on comments of news articles are mostly acknowledging that it’s time for the machines to be switched off and this could be their attempt at “see, I told you!”

I hope that the decision is made tomorrow however I’ve been led to believe there is potential for further court hearings/applications that will take more time.

I think the timing of it all is a bit strange. The comment from H about the nurses “noting it” was very telling, she has repeatedly ignored all the requests from AA to say what the doctors etc have said.

as sad as it is, he’s not breathing.

And its predictable how it'll go down tommrow if the decision is to not grant the appeal with that video out there. Adds fuel to the fire really

Anyone know what sort of security/protection there will be in place for the nurses/drs/hospital staff when a case like this results in machines being switched off?

I can't imagine that moment or the preparation for it is going to go well and I really fear for those working in the hospital in cases like this.

I had to give the say so to switch off my Mothers ventilation, they fully expected her to pass within minutes, in fact she hung on for around 5 hours which was possibly more traumatic.

I had about 8 hours in total from finding her collapsed, realising she'd been like that potentially 3 days, and the suggestion that we switch off, and I was the next of kin, my sister and father (her ex husband) were 100's of miles away.

Getting 'time to get used to the idea' is a luxury many.. most?... people will not have.

The longer this goes on, the angrier I get at the waste of resources being directed to a corpse. I have friends who need regular blood transfusions and sometimes have to wait a week or two before they can have them because of shortages of blood products. (I wish I could donate!).

@WiddlinDiddlin the police will be present

My best wishes to everyone who has had to face this horrendous situation.

Sadly, 'being a fighter ' doesn't change the reality.

They surely can't keep appealing even time a judge gives the ruling? Where is the line drawn?
Is there a video of archie breathing independently?

The timing of this is very suspicious. There is going to be an absolute uproar on AA tomorrow then the right to appeal is declined.

My heart really goes out to the nurses who are having to look after Archie…..it must be awful having to be under the watchful eye of Hollie all day, and feeling judged and scrutinised I imagine.

The police will be present to protect staff as a child dies?

Jesus wept.

I can't tell you how hard this is - we have been in an almost identical situation, but we had to let our son go - he wouldn't have recovered in any meaningful way. It is hell, true hell but we believed the medics would have done all they possibly could to get our boy back if they could. I felt denial - it can't be true but in a strange way I felt I had to respect my son's decision to leave this world. Whatever happens this is a hell the parents will have to learn to live with for the rest of their lives - I wish I could hug them, I can't say it will be alright , but I can say I know.

@Makinglists so sorry for what you live with

This case is utterly devastating. I've read about it from the start and how the young boy found himself in this position and the ongoing court battle. However one thing I only came to learn later was that the signs of life he was displaying did not necessarily indicate that and were quite common in people in his state - I wonder if the general public knew this. I'd read in the news about all the videos and voice notes he was receiving from various people & groups which his mother claimed he was responding to. I must admit for a person with no medical knowledge or background it would appear in a different light than when a doctor friend explained.

I don't believe his medical team have ever or would ever refer to this little boy as a corpse. They might say he has suffered catastrophic irreversible brain damage resulting in brain stem death, but until his heart is no longer beating, he is not a dead body.

Copied over from a post by @Ponoka7 on the first thread:

"On day three they wanted the machines switched off
Which would have been infinitely better than ventilating a dead body for 3 1/2 months."

Yes it would. I totally agree that he died on April 7th. However they are dealing with a child's grieving/shocked/in denial family. The situation needs specialist support. Handled correctly, a few more days given and this might be over now. I've been given devastating news by doctors who have no people skills and a life changing diagnosis by a registrar, who seemed inconvenienced, impatient and had a superior attitude. How we treat the family of child patients matters.

@pinkred, I don't see what's confusing. He went in, tests take time. On day two the present diagnosis was given. On day three they wanted to remove all intervention. That's very quick for a child's parents to process what's happened. Baring in mind there would be very little sleep etc. Yes he's died. But to prevent ending up in court, give consideration to the parents and their needs. I've known vets to have more empathy than some people working in healthcare.

@Ponoka7, I'm really puzzled about why you assume that the hospital didn't involve specialist support in this case. What is your evidence for that assumption? You seem to assume that your experience must be the same as this family's, but I've seen nothing suggesting that is the case apart from some comments from them. As I said on the other thread, even if you discount the inconsistencies in what they are saying about the facts currently, their memory of events at the relevant time is not necessarily going to be reliable.

I also don't understand the significance of day 3. People are put into this situation by accidents and serious illness every day, yet no-one contends that they should all be hooked up to ventilators for several days, let alone weeks or months, whilst their relatives process what has happened. Sadly, the norm is actually for people to have to process tragic events within a few hours, or even less.