Archie Battersbee case

[whynotwhatknot]

I was just wondering why we're not allowed to post about this case-the deletion message mentioned it was ongoing so wouldnt be fair to the family

Charlie gards case was on going and there was numerous threads about it

Anyway if this stands maybe we can discuss

You can tell he’s not because when this happens it changes the shape and frequency of the pressure/flow/volume loops on the monitor.

She claimed he breaths, but only when this recording is played, and then posts the recording showing very clearly that he isn’t triggering the ventilator.

And do more then just note down its happening.

It's sad the whole situation is sad.

Surely if he was taking breaths on his own this would trigger an immediate review by his healthcare team, a nurse wouldn't just agree?

If he was attempting to take breaths I'm guessing you'd want to very quickly evaluate his meds and make sure he's comfortable - right now he's not on any sedating medication because he hasn't needed it.

I think what's happened is Hollie has asked the nurse about this and the nurse has said she'll make a note of it so that she can pass on the responsibility for explaining the situation to the consultant. I WOULD NOT like to be the nurse in that situation.

Thing is from sounds I dont think she'd listen to what they say anyway. She has said many times the Doctors involved are lying about his meds and treatment including in Court so probably see it as them taking this moment away and another barrier from them. Not sure why she'd think they have a reason to lie but it's clearly what she believes

To be fair an awful lot of posters on here think medical staff regularly lie and have ‘alternate agendas’.

This case is triggering for me. My mum died by hanging 5 years ago. We got her to hospital and like Archie she had a cardiac arrest in the ambulance.

We made the choice to switch my mum's life support off that night. She was fatally brain damaged. It makes me so angry seeing people saying his parents are only fighting for him the way any good parents would. Archie has no dignity right now, he's effectively been dead for 3 months.

And to be fair things can be wrong but wouldn't have thought to this extent. Especially if likes been said there's been 5 different doctors giving opinions on his condition. Which she has accepted..just not on the group.

I’m sorry about your mum 💐

Having been a paediatric nurse for years and worked on PICU. I find it impossible to believe that any doctor or nurse would refer to him as a corpse.

Do you have a direct source available to share for this please @Ponoka7 ?

Where does all this come from? How do you know that all that bereavement work hasn't been tried? You were asked before about the evidence for your statement that the consultants handled things badly and you never replied, @Ponoka7. If you're relying solely on what the family say, that would be unwise - not because they are necessarily lying, but because in this sort of situation they may well slmply not have taken everything in. It's not unusual to want the machines switched off on day 3 when it has become obvious that the patient can't recover: often that happens within a few hours of admission when all concerned know that patient has suffered irreparable damage. It's not as if the hospital rushed to court immediately, they very clearly did that as a last resort.

I've just watched this. At the beginning of the video, what do the little white lungs that keep flashing up mean (see attached)? This is where H seems to think that these flash up when A is trying to take breaths

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4596573-archie-battersebee-case-thread-2

new thread

the facebook army are crying over his breathing

There needs to be a bit of respect here. Yes his mum has ‘opened this up’ for conversation, but Archie hasn’t, and he’s the patient here. I don’t think he would want people making such comments about his mum. You can make your points without being so cold/rude. It all comes across as a bit spectator-ish.

To be fair, if he was breathing it would be a miracle that thoroughly merited crying over. Unfortunately, however, he isn't.

@Ponoka7 where is the evidence for this? Because that is a horrifically awful claim to make about the staff caring for him.

@nolongersurprised

"On day three they wanted the machines switched off
Which would have been infinitely better than ventilating a dead body for 3 1/2 months."

Yes it would. I totally agree that he died on April 7th. However they are dealing with a child's grieving/shocked/in denial family. The situation needs specialist support. Handled correctly, a few more days given and this might be over now. I've been given devastating news by doctors who have no people skills and a life changing diagnosis by a registrar, who seemed inconvenienced, impatient and had a superior attitude. How we treat the family of child patients matters.

@pinkred, I don't see what's confusing. He went in, tests take time. On day two the present diagnosis was given. On day three they wanted to remove all intervention. That's very quick for a child's parents to process what's happened. Baring in mind there would be very little sleep etc. Yes he's died. But to prevent ending up in court, give consideration to the parents and their needs. I've known vets to have more empathy than some people working in healthcare.

Paediatric Intensive care doctors and nurses are specialists in this area.

Unfortunately they look after lots of children and families in this situation. They are used to explaining very serious situations, with very poor outlook to families in a compassionate manner.

Yes, if a child is likely to be brain stem dead you would talk about brain stem death testing, what that means and further options (organ donation).

Lots and lots of families make the brave decision to accept that withdrawal of care and/ or organ donation is the correct route for their child.

Cases like this one are very unusual (but becoming more common because sadly I think society as a whole is less respectful of expert opinion and a whole industry now exists to tell families that compassionate withdrawal of healthcare is not in their childs best interests).

Caring for children in disputed cases takes an enormous toll on ICU staff - I believe all the units involved in recent UK legal cases lost a swathe of nurses in the aftermath. They are not easily replaced.

DOI: Former PICU doctor. Still works in children's healthcare.

Sadly parents have to make that decision that quickly every day 😥 that doesn't put the doctors in the wrong

@Lunarpsychobitch If there is moisture in the ventilation tubing you can get false triggering of the ventilator. I think his Mom was told that there were secretions which would be in keeping with staff thinking this was an artefact.

Most ventilators mark a patient triggered breath rather than a mandatory one from the ventilator.

I'm not familiar with that screen so don't know what the lung symbol means. On the ventilators I use most often the upstroke changes colour.

I was traumatised as a much more junior doctor in a case where the family couldn't/wouldn't accept their child's diagnosis. They fought and fought and fought.

He died in a messy cardiac arrest situation with his mother screaming at the senior consultant to do more then barging the consultant out of the way and attempting to inject drugs into him herself.

The contrasts with some very beautiful (but still sad) planned withdrawal scenarios that I've been involved in with staff coming in especially to facilitate things for the family that hadn't previously been possible (e.g a trip to the park / a bath), wider family and friends coming, story sharing, photographs and then a very gentle death surrounded by love.

He is beyond all that. But the final goodbye could have been planned to give comfort to those left behind

@Wouldloveanother

Yet here YOU are....speculating yourself