Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

i'm fairly sure that if someone blew up a school with teh children in it on the pretext it was being used for terrorist activities ANYWHERE else in the world we could all predict what people would say and how they'd react.

Let's not forget, there were no rockets in the UN school that was bombed. The UN sent the co-ordinates to the IDF on 17 occasions, telling them there were children sheltering there. It was still bombed.

There was no safe place for any children in gaza at the time -whether they were told it was safe by the UN or by Hamas, is irrelevant- any place in gaza was an IDF target.

It was a war crime - one of many.

but it's their own fault sabrina by some weird convoluted throw in a few buzzwords they've always worked before logic.

FUCK OFF! we are not stupid. we are not morally bankrupt. we are not in thrall to your golden calf.

the murder of children, knowingly, intentionally is not justifiable. trying to justify merely shows how incurably sick you are.

i'm afraid israel has become a rabid dog. it matters not how sweet or well meant it might have been as a puppy or what wonderful potential and breeding it had. it is now a rabid, out of control animal that needs to be dealt with.

dingalong - here are my answers.
"are you in favour of the settlements in the west bank ?" No.

"Which borders are acceptable to you ? Pre 1967 or after ?" Pre 1967 is essential otherwise it is not a two state solution.

"If Hamas's military wing renounced violence like the IRA would you work with them if like they they agreed to Israel's right to exist within the pre 1967 borders?" Yes, it would be wonderful if they renounced violence and accepted peace with Israel's right to exist within pre 1967 borders.

"Would you grant a right to return for all Palestinians exiled ?( In a similar way to right of Jewish people to move to Israel)" If all Palestinians moved to democratic Israel, it would soon be an overwhelming Arab Muslim state and Jews would be in a minority. As a democracy it would no longer be a Jewish state serving the interests of the nation. We already have 49 Muslim majority states in the world but only one for the Jewish nation. All countries in the world have criteria for determining who can be a citizen (e.g. if you have British parents you are prioritised over non-British). Please be aware that there are 1.6 million Israeli Arabs with full citizenship in the present state of Israel, whilst Gaza is a Jew free zone.

"In every society there are a few fundamentalists so the Irish process would have been derailed due to a few splinter groups. Could you accept these might not be acting in people's name or with their support and not let it derail a peace agreement ?" Absobloominlutely. But Hamas is not a splinter group. It is the elected government of Gaza and all native opponents have been executed. There is nobody else in Gaza for Israel to negotiate with. I hope that progress can be made between Israel and the West Bank government. A peaceful independent Palestinian state in the West Bank would be wonderful.

"If it was the other way around and large amounts of Israeli civilians were being killed, and their cities razed to the ground, their hospitals destroyed, their people purposely starved, their civil rights removed I'd be supporting Israel" I am glad to hear that your motives are compassionate rather than partisan. I personally feel that putting your support behind the apparent underdog misses much of the rights and wrongs of the situation, much of the causes and a whole lot of misapplied blame.

Sergeant

"Foam-flecked hate-filled rhetoric", poetic, but really? Examples please.

Also;
Do you think Israel has the best interests of the Palestinian people at heart?
Do you think anyone who has the best wishes of the Israeli people could support the IDF?

Let me rewrite your last sentence and see if it makes more sense.

I (would like to) believe that the Israeli people are much better than their government and are as much the victims of IDF as they are of Hamas.

No one on this thread has excused Hamas.

Your post shows blatant disregard for civilian losses. Civilian losses are not an inescapable fact of war. That is not true. Civilian life can be protected in war. Israel is not doing enough to prevent civilian deaths.

Saying that criticising Israeli actions is anti-Semitic is bollocks. You know what sounds really anti-Semitic to me? People (Netanyahu etc) who claim that the only way Jewish Israelis can feel safe and happy is if their government is constantly bombing the shit out of other people's kids. None of the Israelis and none of the Jews I know agree with that, and they are sick to their stomachs thinking these atrocities are being committed "on their behalf". Er, thanks but no thanks.

Getting more pictures up on bit.ly/SCBoycottIsrael - do add your own if you can.

Likewise Honey

I can't help but think that if an individual acted like Israel is acting, on an individual level, they would be committed under the Mental Health Act to safe facility, to prevent harm to themselves and others, and for treatment including pharmacological restraint.

Sergeant
Would the IDF ever renounce violence?
I think you made a mistake where you referred to Israel as a democracy. If Hamas is the elected government, how can it be a terrorist organisation? How can you justify trying to wipe out another nation's government? Is that democratic? Is it only democratic when they vote in who Israel says can lead them?
apparent underdog - is Palestine not the underdog in this conflict?

Can we all change our names to 'letsleepingbabieslie' or would that be too confusing?

I'd definitely be confused! But you could use it as a hashtag if you post things on FB / twitter. Please post a pic!

dingalong they are liberal moderates who campaign for civil rights. Their argument is that the civil rights violations in Gaza are a result of Hamas' actions rather than Israeli actions and that to pretend otherwise is anti-Semitic.

sergeantmajor doesn't seem able to clarify his/her position on the subject of bombing sleeping children in UN schools, hakluyt.

I guess we can draw our own conclusions.

Sergeant- I think you must have missed this-
""Hakluyt - "Israel is targeting UN safe havens, where people have been told their children will be safe. There are no circumstances in which that is acceptable." How about this circumstance - when there are rockets hidden by Hamas under UN buildings and Hamas tell their citizens that they would be safe there. I feel your outrage is misdirected."

Sergeant-I would like to be clear here. Are you saying that under those circumstances, bombing a school full of children would be acceptable?"

Is it really racist to say that x race shouldn't annihilate y race?

Surely, only if you think y aren't human. (And even then, I don't you find many supporting the annihilation of a race of dogs, for example)

I don't think we can change sergeant's mind that killing babies is wrong, sadly.

Being anti Semitic is racist. Being anti Zionist isn't. Many Jews are any Zionist.

Sergeant you did mean that there were circumstances where it was acceptable to bomb children. We've probably all said things on these threads in the heat of the moment which were cruel and uncalled for. I would respect you if you admitted you made a mistake. From reading your posts it seems that you really wouldn't approve of children being bombed but that is not what you wrote.

I think it's important to debate with those who are in support of israel but I don't agree with your suggestion that those against israels actions are now aware of all the nuances of the situation. On the contrary, I believe it is people who blindly and unquestioningly support Israel and the idf who are unaware of the complexities. People like myself have looked at both arguments very very carefully and I have yo say that anyone with compassion amd humanity cannot help but see the absolute horror israel is inflicting on a nation.

Can you not bring yourself to answer my question, sergeant? Well, at least that means there's hope.

Hakluyt - I can't always respond to posts instantaneously. I do have a job and three children.
I thought I had been crystal clear but here I go again.

Bombing children is abhorrent. Bombing hospitals and UN centres is abhorrent. All human life is equal and precious. No disagreement there.

Who agrees with this:
Hamas placing missiles under UN schools is abhorrent.
Hamas siting its command centre under a hospital is abhorrent.
Moving your children into areas where they are told they are safe whilst firing missiles from the same spot is abhorrent.
Siting your missiles in heavily built up areas and firing from there, in full expectation of retaliation is abhorrent.

All of the above are abhorrent sergeant. Hamas is hardly a paragon of virtue. The problem is thus, israel has acted so horrifically and so callously that anything hamas has done pales into virtual insignificance.

Understand this if you can : even if (and I'm not sure everything you accuse Hamas of has been proven or is true); hamas stored weapons in a school or based themselves under a hospital, israel cannot bomb those in and around. It simply cannot. You sound like you are still justifying the murder of innocent people and it's absolutely disgusting.

Can you see that international law sets out laws during war which must be abided by and these protect civilians. These laws have been breached by Israel time and again as they have bombed schools containing no weapons, used illegal weapons, experimented with illegal bombs and disregarded the world's call to stop killing children.

I'm not sure you realise how inhumane you come across.

FrontierPyschiatrist asks for examples of foam-flecked hate-filled rhetoric. Well accusing me of being in favour of killing babies is one such example, from his/her good self.

"Would the IDF ever renounce violence? I think you made a mistake where you referred to Israel as a democracy."
No I didn't. You may not like its military actions but it is a democracy. Many people marched against the British military actions (killing thousands of innocent civilians) in Iraq but Britain remained a democracy throughout.

"If Hamas is the elected government, how can it be a terrorist organisation?"
I don't believe I described it as such. But we all know that some unspeakable thugs can come to power by fair means and foul. I can think of plenty worse names to call them.

"How can you justify trying to wipe out another nation's government?"
I don't know. Ask Hamas. (Actually, their public aim is to wipe out the entire nation, not its government and Jews worldwide).

"Bombing children is abhorrent. Bombing hospitals and UN centres is abhorrent. All human life is equal and precious. No disagreement there."

So do you condemn the Israelis for doing it?

I don't think sergeantmajor deserves all this flak. He/she is hardly Ayelet Shaked or Moshe Feiglin.

www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/06/devastating-new-un-chart-proves-isreals-gaza-attack-was-a-war-on-civilians/

UN report which shows israel waged a war on civilians.

Idf Whistleblower arrested and interrogated: countercurrentnews.com/2014/08/idf-whistleblower-who-posted-israeli-troops-killed-gaza-civilians-in-revenge-now-under-arrest/

Israel are running scared and the call for them to be tried for war crimes is getting louder. The evidence is there and I hope they are made to pay.

"I don't think sergeantmajor deserves all this flak."

I just want him/her to condemn the Israeli Army bombing UN safe havens.