Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

HoneyBadger - why would you want to support the Egyptians? They're just as unpleasant to their Islamic radicals as Israel, if not worse, and in addition are a notably unpleasant dictatorship oppressing women, Copts and sexual minorities. Or don't these things matter as long as it's not Israel....

I wish I could take part on Saturday. Has there been anymore statements from MP's or the PM?

Any news on twitter? I'm not on there.

I also wonder if 'terror tunnel' & arms stores were expected to be found going all the way under jewish homes if they would also be bombed in the middle of the night. Whilst families slept all for the ''greater good'' of stopping Hamas. Would the Jewish people still be support the targeting of civilians and civilian homes.

goldvelvet - you're asking what would happen if Jews lived in Gaza? Stupid question - they'd have been killed or driven out long ago, like the Jews in all other Arab countries, except for a few thousand in N Africa. And if Hamas had decided to tunnel into Jewish homes near the border, I rather think they would have called the police....

Sam are you trying to be deliberately ironic? Jews would have been killed or driven out?! Oh the irony.

I read some interesting information about the tunnels today which said the tunnels were first created because the inhumane siege imposed by Israel was causing mass poverty and starvation. The tunnels were used to get food and medical supplies in. Egypt found the tunnels and closed them without any casualties (take note israel) which led the UN to report that Gaza was on the brink of a humanitarian crisis.

Incidentally I remember learning about the warsaw ghetto at school and we discussed the tunnels they built and how the clever thinking and determination of the Jews building the tunnels was a source of pride.

No I wasn't, the tunnels supposedly went into Israel If they had gone further and found under Jewish homes is what i'm asking.

a jewish home in Isreal with a tunnel under it. Would it still be bombed?

Or would they be able to dismantle the tunnel with-out any loss or life and mass destruction?

''call the police''
I see so the police can deal with the Hamas and tunnels in Israel but a bomb deals with the Hamas & tunnels in Gaza? Seems fair & legit to me

Speaking of these "terror tunnels", here's an interesting Al Jazeera piece:

link

Seeing as we are back on the "it's all Hamas' fault" merry-go-round despite addressing it time and time again, I'd like to this email from Rabbi Alissa Wise from Jewish Voices for Peace:

Responses to five commonly heard pro-war talking points.

1. CLAIM: Israel avoids civilian casualties, but Hamas aims to kill civilians.
   RESPONSE: Hamas has crude weapons technology that lacks any targeting capability. As such, Hamas rocket attacks ipso facto violate the principle of distinction because all of its attacks are indiscriminate. This is not contested. Israel, however, would not be any more tolerant of Hamas if it strictly targeted military objects, as we have witnessed of late. Israel considers Hamas and any form of its resistance, armed or otherwise, to be illegitimate. In contrast, … with the use of drones, F-16s and an arsenal of modern weapon technology, Israel has the ability to target single individuals and therefore to avoid civilian casualties. But rather than avoid them, Israel has repeatedly targeted civilians as part of its military operations.
   Noura Erakat (July 22, 2014) Five Israeli Talking Points Debunked, The Nation link

2. CLAIM: Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005.
   RESPONSE: Although in 2005 Israel removed approximately 8000 Jewish settlers who had been living in illegal colonies in Gaza under then-Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s so-called “disengagement” plan, Israel continues to exercise "unconsented-to effective control," the legal definition for qualifying as an occupying power. Israel continues to control Gaza’s airspace, coastline, and all of its entry and exit points except for one controlled by Egypt, which has cooperated with Israel in maintaining the siege and blockade of Gaza. This status has been affirmed by the Red Cross, Amnesty International, the U.N., and the U.S. State Department, among others.

Institute for Middle East Understanding (July 31, 2014) Fact check: Israeli claims about the assault on Gaza link

3. CLAIM: Gaza proves there can be no Palestinian state RESPONSE: To grasp the perversity of using Gaza as an explanation for why Israel can’t risk a Palestinian state, it helps to realize that Sharon withdrew Gaza’s settlers in large measure because he didn’t want a Palestinian state.

Peter Beinart (July 30, 2014) What American Jews Haven’t Been Told About Gaza, Ha'aretz link

4. CLAIM: Hamas started this latest assault RESPONSE: Israel’s assault on Gaza, as pointed out by analyst Nathan Thrall in the New York Times, was not triggered by Hamas’ rockets directed at Israel but by Israel’s determination to bring down the Palestinian unity government that was formed in early June, even though that government was committed to honoring all of the conditions imposed by the international community for recognition of its legitimacy.

Henry Siegman (July 22, 2014) Israel provoked this war. It's up to President Obama to stop it. Politico link

5. CLAIM: Israel is acting under self defense. RESPONSE: All nations have a right of self-defense, including Israel. But that right may be exercised lawfully only in limited circumstances. Israel cannot validly claim self-defense in its recent onslaught against Gaza for two main reasons. First…Israel remains an occupying power under international law, bound to protect the occupied civilian population. Israel can use force to defend itself, but no more than is necessary to quell disturbances. Hence this is not a war – rather, it is a top military power unleashing massive firepower against a penned and occupied Palestinian population. Second, self-defense cannot be claimed by a state that initiates violence, as Israel did in its crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank, arresting more than 400, searching 2,200 homes and other sites, and killing at least nine Palestinians.

George Bisharat (July 22, 1014) Israel Has Overreacted to the Threats It Provoked The New York Times link

I will be demonstrating on Saturday, I just wish there was more I could do. Walking around Central London waving a flag feels a bit futile when you see how the people of Gaza are suffering.

Guitargirl

Walking around Central London waving a flag feels a bit futile- Maybe if it was just you standing alone, you will be standing with thousands and more people equates to a larger voice. I'm sure there are people in Gaza will be taking comfort in the fact that there are people around the world outpouring their support towards their plight and standing in solidarity.

People take notice when lots of people collect to champion a cause. You're doing a great thing.

There's 2 coaches going from where I live we are very lucky to have secured a spot and not have to worry about transport.

It's really important that the numbers are high and that anyone who supports the palestinians but has thus far remained silent speaks up. Enough is enough.

Goldvelvet - yes, I hope it will do something.

There seems to be a bit of confusion about the tunnels - Egypt destroyed the supply ones, not the "terror" ones. From the Economist:

"Most of the tunnels that Israel was targeting were combat tunnels, not tunnels used for supplies. The bulk of the latter were destroyed by command of General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, now Egypt's president, after he took over Egypt’s reins in July 2013. The destruction of these tunnels, connecting Gaza with Egypt, not only led to drastic shortages in Gaza, particularly of construction materials, but also curtailed the tariffs on which Gaza’s government relied, thus leaving it nearly bankrupt.

Since then, supplies of basics have come largely from Israel. But Israel still restricts the supply of inputs Gaza needs for development, as well as blocking its exports."

I saw this article in my local paper today: activists have shut down a factory that produces engines for drones and is owned by Israel’s largest weapons company, Elbit Systems.

halfdrunkcoffee I think the "terror tunnels" thing is rather a recent Israeli invention. Clearly they'll have known about the tunnels for years, and they have plainly not been used to launch any attacks on Israeli civilians.

Here is the Al Jazeera article about them

And by rather recent, I mean about halfway through the Gaza assault.

" you're asking what would happen if Jews lived in Gaza? Stupid question - they'd have been killed or driven out long ago, like the Jews in all other Arab countries, except for a few thousand in N Africa"

www.haaretz.com/news/national/four-israeli-citizens-living-in-gaza-challenge-ban-on-visiting-family.premium-1.501945

"Hamas argues for return of Jews to Gaza - Israel Today"
www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23073/Default.aspx?article=related_stories

Halfdrunk that's interesting. But how would israel or anyone be able to differentiate between tunnels used for supplies and those for battle.

Also I read somewhere that Israel has been asked to supply a map of the tunnels. Given that they literally obliterated whole areas of Gaza I think the UN want to see some proof that the bombing wasn't completely indiscriminate although I suspect israel just wanted to pulverised and destroy every thing and person above ground irrespective of tunnels.

I think personally that the tunnels were a very convenient scapegoat.

somewheresafe I think it was under the assumption that any tunnels entering Israel were not for supplies, as I don't think it would have been easy to smuggle in supplies from Israel; I could be wrong however. Backinthering thanks for the interesting link.

I've been reading some reports of the murder of 17 people in the West Bank since the crises started.
link
And so it goes.... Palestinians treated as worthless and dispensable in Apartheid Israel.

I have had a response from my MP. It's irritated me so much that I'm going to write back this eve. Please let me know of anything you'd add too

Who is s/he nancery? What party? Mine is a fib dem- silence and tumbleweed. My old mp was great in this issue though (just crap on everything else:Tory)