Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

somewheresafe - I don't think that the Iraqi PM stepping down had much to do with any election. More a fight between radical Islamists and even more radical Islamists, and the almost complete ethnic cleansing of Christians and Yazidis....

How many more thousand posts are you going to take, evading the real problem of WHY Hamas should NOT be fighting an artillery war from a 25 x 8 mile strip of land with 1.7 million civilians within - rather than insult/disparage other posters for daring to mention if Hamas don't fire thousands of missiles, it is unlike innocents will be killed.

When the UN safe haven was hit, how many Hamas missiles/rockets had already been fired with no cares who it hits?

In others minds, the futility of making 'he men' statements via rockets into Israel is the main cause of the Palestinian casualties.

How many Hamas rockets/missiles fired into israel make it WORTH inviting back a millitary shit storm, 3,000, 4,000, 7,000 - HOW MANY attempts on Israeli lives will it take for the apologists to think, 'is that really a good idea'?

Hamas is ACTIVELY at war with Israel, the manufacturing facilities with Gaza and several thousand rockets arsenal, with 32 tunnels to Israel built during the last lull as 'it's quicker by tube' to get to the civilians of their enemy, is the ongoing proof of that.

What are you people wanting, israel to play fair military ping-pong, where if Hamas fires 10 rockets, Israel fires back 10 similar rockets?

That is not how Israel rolls and Hamas knows that; if you REALLY want to help the Palestinian people and not mind-numbingly post thousands of political attacks on Israel and who ever else, obviously for your own political or faith reasons, don't give Hamas 'carry on chaps' as you are oxygen.

Get them to demilitarize and look after the CURRENT social needs on their own people, and then, only then, will there be a chance for concessions e.g. the blockade, the year Hamas came to power and Israel saw the writing on the wall.

Dingalong - as you may be aware, the Jews accepted the partition in 1947, fought, and lost. They weren't happy with Israel existing at all, fought in 1967 and lost again. Arafat was offered over 95% of the West Bank, but turned it down. If the Palestinians keep losing land, it's because they keep turning down decent offers.....

how much clearer could i be so that you knew this wasn't politics or faith for me - 'no such thing as innocent civilians', no regard for international law regarding citizens and their safety during military attacks and total disregard for the law against collective punishment.

you don't need a particular political or faith leaning to know that that cannot be right and cannot be allowed to be something that our governments 'support unconditionally' unless we want to see our world go to hell in handbasket.

there are terrorists here in england btw and in the US would we be cool with a school with our children in it being blown to smitherines by high tech military weaponry because a terror cell allegedly had hidden some weapons in it?

what's the distinction here? colour of skin? location? religion? an assumption that oh it's only in 'places like that' or 'with people like that' and it doesn't effect us?

our government here in the UK has said they support these violations. clearly that needs rigorous response from every citizen on the planet.

Dingalong ..... so if the people insulting other posters talking about the CURRENT Hamas situation, are really only interested in a lasting solution that satisfies both sides, shouldn't they just say that, rather than hide and use the current Palestinian casualties brought on by current Hamas attacks, for those LONG TERM aims?

Of course that would explain why there are so many Hamas apologists and accusations of others trying to show balance as being Israeli apologists - as in your heart you KNOW the Hamas DNA will NOT ALLOW a peaceful long term settlement.

Their objects in Egypt now, is not to improve the lives of their citizens, that could have been done over the past several years by using $hundreds of million of annual donations they receive on THEIR OWN PEOPLE, not rockets/missiles and see the money go up in smoke.

Hamas wants concessions to continue the war they KNOW will cause their own civilian casualties, and israel knows all this, so what can they do.

All the international community CAN do with a Hamas led Palestine is ask israel to show restraint in replying to Hamas rockets, and help patch up the Palestinians afterwards.

How many posters here if living to the south of Israel would want their government to allow, nay facilitate, a 'little war' with Hamas, where every day of their lives they KNOW Hamas is plotting, tunneling and looking to hit the Israeli beaches, to kill them?

How many of them look at a 1946 map and practically think, 'well they've got a point, I'm a legitimate Hamas target'?

We are where we are, and anyone ignoring the Hamas problem, should not expect a solution anytime soon. IMO

hamas dna - that's a nice catchphrase - yours or lifted from someone again?

TheHoneyBadger or anyone else .... a simple question on THE ISSUE, do you support Hamas in how they go about their objectives for a lasting Israeli-Palastinian solution? Yes or no.

Stand up and be counted, how many posters believe Hamas is better placed to win concessions from the Israelis than Fatah was, when Israel forcibly removed 8,000 of their own settlers from Gaza?

Isitme - 'palestinian casualties brought on by current hamas attacks'. nothing to do with israeli bombs falling on them or ground troops shooting them en masse, or attacks from the sea, or illegal weapons being tested on them?

Victim blaming has also been discussed a few threads back. As has your aggressive tone and childish underlining and bold.

No one yet?

Interesting, as if NONE of you support the Hamas's M.O. (and by implication Hamas is NOT a party Israel 'can do long term business with), what else are you expecting here APART from the obvious outrage on the humanitarian issues of a perpetual war Hamas wants, and Israel going OTT in their response trying to take out their military targets – other people here to respect and support a Hamas led Palestine, whose main aim is to displace/kill every Israeli on the land arguably the Palestinian’s rightly claim?

Somewheresafe ...... thanks for your massive generalizations (from 2006 when Hamas came to power?), of course, in your mind, no israeli aggression has anything to do with Hamas's perpetual war, that you clearly should be on Hamas's terms.

Do YOU support Hamas in how they go about their objectives, yes or no?

Happy to say I don't support Hamas.

*So no one on here, especially those who routinely (when losing the debate) accuse others of supporting Israeli ordinance casualties within Gaza, actually AGREE & SUPPORT, the methods of a Hamas government in Palestine, that currently invites any Israeli retaliation to the thousands of rockets they fire at Israeli citizens?

On that gobsmacking hypocrisy, I’m done here.

I certainly don't support Hamas isitmebut. I've said before that there is fault on both sides.

Sorry but I'm done with clarifying my position regarding hamas. If anyone wants to know they can read the fucking threads.

Deflect deny defame. How many times can supporters of the regime lay the blame for the deaths of palestinian civilians at the door of... palestinian civilians?

Honey - the civil rights of civilians continue. The goings on in America at the moment are abhorrent. This is what happens when those in power are allowed to kill without any accountability or remorse.

The erosion of civil rights.

And if you'd read the blimmin threads Isitme you'd see that although israel pulled the illegal settlers out it left in their place a siege so crippling and inhumane it has kept palestinians on the brink of an economic and humanitarian crisis for nearly a decade. Israel has confirmed in leaked documents this was its sole intention.

isitme you asked how many people expect Hamas to fire over 3000 rockets and expect Israel not to fight back?

Is it OK to cage a population and not expect resistance?
Is it ok to assassinate people using every illegal method and not expect resistance?
Is it Ok to use foreign passports to plan an assassination and not expect resistance?
Is it Ok to stop very ill children from seeking medical aid and not expect resistance?
Is it ok to let loose rabid soldiers on families to destroy their homes, their livelihoods and not expect resistance?
Is it ok to continue building settlements on someone else's land and not expect resistance?
Is it ok to blockade an entire population because you don't like democracy anymore and not expect resistance?
How many years should the Palestinians sit and wait for the world to remove it from the brink of a humanitarian catastrophe? They waited 66 years, how many more should they wait in refugee camps, in Israeli jails, in atrocious condition before they may be given permission to resist? What would it take for a Palestinian to be recognised as human? When will Israel start recognising that Palestinians also love their children. Absolute barbarism.

People world wide used to condemn rockets launched at Israel because most of them didn't have a clue why they were launched and how vile israel's treatment of the Palestinians was. Isreal's rant of 'terror terror' doesn't wash anymore. Now the world is finding out at what an abhorrent apartheid terrorist state Israel is fast becoming and though they still condemn rockets being launched, people are horrified with Israel and condemn Israel more and the boycott movement is picking up.