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Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

999 replies

AndHarry · 04/08/2014 22:41

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
SamG76 · 05/08/2014 09:41

I'm all in favour of the Baroness stepping down, but what was/is the govt's policy on Gaza? We were scarcely going to send troops to fight with either side, so it's just a matter of what was said, which frankly made very little difference to either side.

goldvelvet · 05/08/2014 09:54

QU what a lovely tribute to wake up to this morning, it made me tear up.

Hakluyt thank you for the link I have chosen 4 names for me and the dc's and attached red, black, white and green ribbon. I will buy flowers tomorrow and put them up around my local town and village.

Isitmebut · 05/08/2014 10:46

"Would be good to see other Ministers following her lead"

Yup, more Minister should tell Israel that Hamas is not a threat to it, that will do the trick.

Remember when Miliband told Cameron he would vote in parliament to take any action needed against Assad in Syria and then voted against, leaving Assad in control when they could have taken out Assad's attacks on the resistance with Isis elements?

How many casualties now?

How many millions of refugees now?

Well now Isis and Assad is fighting the Resistance, Assad is not attacking Isis, leaving the way for Isis to be the main force against Assd (and others) - and then Assad says to the west, who do you want to govern Syria, hoping to be then SUPPORTED by the west

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-brings-its-war-to-lebanon--and-it-could-be-a-key-part-of-a-masterplan-9648009.html

The politics changed in Gaza when Israel withdrew and Hamas moved in a few years later to make the Strip an ammunitions factory and rocket platform.

The point is any actions by the West to let Hamas regroup/rearm is stupidity UNTIL Hamas says it will de-militarize Gaza - and no amount of 'politiking' in London will change that fact - as we are not sitting in Israel waiting to be attacked every day of the week.

Jefferson · 05/08/2014 11:00

Isitme If you are not going to sit in Israel waiting to be attacked, then why should Palestinians/Hamas sit in Palestine waiting to be attacked? Do you just expect them to give up arms when they are continuously attacked? Hamas has done nothing to warrant the current slaughter.

Hamas is not going to demilitarise while there are blockades and continued infringement of Palestinian land. They want to claim back land that was stolen from them. Israel will not give it to them. Nothing will change.
I feel very depressed about the whole situation.

TheHoneyBadger · 05/08/2014 11:11

yes but israelis are human beings jefferson. the likes of isitmebut don't think that palestinians are. ergo the rules are different you see.

israeli life is worth protecting even against dangerous babies and women and disabled people, palestinian life is disposable.

Shockingundercrackers · 05/08/2014 11:13

Well done Baroness Warsi - I am stunned that there's someone in the government prepared to act on their principals. Even more so that it's her.

Shame my own MP hasn't bothered to reply yet. It's a pretty poor reflection on things that the only Green in the house (another woman of action I thought) says naff all whist a Tory falls on her sword!

OneStepCloser · 05/08/2014 11:15

www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/israel-palestinians-anti-war-protesters-gaza-2014839155862548.html

Link to interesting and disturbing article on Anti War Protesters in Israel.

TheHoneyBadger · 05/08/2014 11:23

thanks for that link onestepcloser. again proof that israel is no democracy. you do not get arrested for protesting against the government in a democracy. at the point where you can be thrown in prison for disagreeing with your government you definitely know you don't live in a democracy.

Isitmebut · 05/08/2014 11:24

Jefferson ….. unfortunately the FACTS in Gaza do not support your view; things went boobs up when Hamas took over the Gaza by force and started a civil war with Fatah – and the people in Gaza, on a strip of land around 25 miles long and less than half that wide, reliant on aid PRIOR to Hamas – have suffered ever since.

Hamas with around 45,000 combatants, cannot fight and win from a base the size of a postage stamp with 1.7 million people within – and Fatah had worked that out, Hamas that had it’s 1,200 ‘supply tunnels’ to Egypt taxing their people on imports, and tunnels to Israel, HAS NOT.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2143340-Palestine-Israel

Hamas needs to think of ‘their own’ people, as Israel surrounded by countries and others who would wipe everyone of them out tomorrow, thinks about theirs. But that is not how Islamist Jahadists ‘roll’ though, is it????

READ THE LINK ABOVE, AND THANK HAMAS FOR MAKING MATTERS WORSE, AFTER ISRAEL BULLDOZED THEIR OWN SETTLEMENTS TO MOVE OUT, AND HAMAS MOVED IN.

Next I'll be told that ISIS are 'misunderstood' and can be negotiated with.

Yruapita · 05/08/2014 11:25

Baroness Warsi's resignation worries me in the sense that it means that our government has no intention of doing anything about Israel. So they will just watch Israel kill, butcher, slaughter children.

We cannot let this happen! Protests show solidarity, but the dont make any difference to our government. What can we do to make them act????

Isitmebut · 05/08/2014 11:30

(Dec 9 2012) The Tehran-Hamas Arms Highway

english.al-akhbar.com/node/14300

“Of course, the visits were not limited to Hamas members. Members of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard regularly visited Gaza to learn about the military nature of the Strip and underground ammunition storage capabilities used by the Palestinians.”

“Following the visits of the Revolutionary Guard and close inspection of Qassam Brigades’ needs, another phase of the relationship began. It centered on how to smuggle weapons to to the besieged Gaza Strip.”

“Since the Iranians are practical, they said that this increased the threat of exposure, so they built local factories to build the rockets inside Gaza instead of smuggling them.The revolutionary guards transported the weapons to Syria, which also opened its factories to Hamas. The next stop was Sudan, then to the Sinai desert, where Hezbollah took care of getting the weapons into the Strip.”

“The only way to send in the Fajr 5 rockets was through the tunnels, so they were taken apart to be reassembled on the other side. Since the Iranians are practical, they said that this increased the threat of exposure, so they built local factories to build the rockets inside Gaza instead of smuggling them.”

“The M-75 rockets launched at Tel Aviv last month – and unveiled to the public for the first time in the recent operation Stones of Sijjil (baked clay) – were the local version of the Fajr 5.”

“When we began developing mid-range and long-range missiles, we undoubtedly benefited from Fajr 5 technology. We went to our friends who were experienced in producing such rockets,” maintained a high ranking Hamas official.”

“Fajr 5 rockets were sent to us from Iran, and we made use of their technology and developed it based on our previous experience and the geography of the Strip,” he explained.”

“The Iranians were amazed because they did not expect the residents of a besieged Strip to be able to develop them with such efficacy,” another Hamas official said.”

TheHoneyBadger · 05/08/2014 11:32

has anyone noticed how much haters love the use of bold and CAPS LOCK?

that i remember page has actually made me cry. so sad to see the names and ages like that and in the context of the UK where any child dead would be mourned, buried, remembered. the contrast to being shoved in an ice cream freezer is... wordless.

somewheresafe · 05/08/2014 11:35

I can't really believe some apologists still think this is about Hamas. The last few threads certainly highlighted that it is about far more than that. In fact even the idf to some extent have moved from the Hamas justification to the terror tunnels one.

Israel want to obliterate Gaza and are upset when hamas fight back? Really? Really?

Isitme you really need to start seeing palestinians as humans who deserve equality and freedom. Hamas too are humans. Just like the idf. Currently the world despises israel and the idf but no one would wish to kill, imprison or injure Israelis.

saadia · 05/08/2014 11:43

I am really impressed with Baroness Warsi for taking a stand. The West's complicity speaks volumes about old Colonial attitudes.

Israel is an occupying force. I am not a fan of Hamas but they are representing the Palestinians and if Israel wants peace, which I doubt, they will talk with Hamas. Israel apologists you really need to change the record. The old lies and excuses have all been exposed.

Isitmebut · 05/08/2014 11:44

Israel moved out to give those in Gaza autonomy, Hamas moved in, caused a civil war within and stepped up the war against Israel, everything changed for the worse. FACT

Those who refuse to see the facts and what Hamas is, obviously have their own political agendas.

Tell me, how do you build and store missiles and rockets in such a small area crammed with 1.7 million people and say you care for the welfare of your citizens?

somewheresafe · 05/08/2014 11:45

I can't really believe some apologists still think this is about Hamas. The last few threads certainly highlighted that it is about far more than that. In fact even the idf to some extent have moved from the Hamas justification to the terror tunnels one.

Israel want to obliterate Gaza and are upset when hamas fight back? Really? Really?

Isitme you really need to start seeing palestinians as humans who deserve equality and freedom. Hamas too are humans. Just like the idf. Currently the world despises israel and the idf but no one would wish to kill, imprison or injure Israelis.

somewheresafe · 05/08/2014 11:48

I can't really believe some apologists still think this is about Hamas. The last few threads certainly highlighted that it is about far more than that. In fact even the idf to some extent have moved from the Hamas justification to the terror tunnels one.

Israel want to obliterate Gaza and are upset when hamas fight back? Really? Really?

Isitme you really need to start seeing palestinians as humans who deserve equality and freedom. Hamas too are humans. Just like the idf. Currently the world despises israel and the idf but no one would wish to kill, imprison or injure Israelis.

somewheresafe · 05/08/2014 11:49

Sorry for the triple posts.

Yes honey seeing babies bodies in ice cream freezers is an image that will haunt me.

Fakebook · 05/08/2014 11:49

I'm angry that this whole thing is still being ignored by the "civilised" world. I haven't read the whole last two threads but the little baby who was born by c-section from her dead mother also died a few days ago after a bomb cut off the electricity in the hospital she was in. That was an innocent little baby with no idea what kind of world she had come into. Shame on the world leaders for not speaking up and stopping this.

For anyone who is in or near Oxford, there is an event happening on 10th August organised by OMCI to raise money for Gaza. They raised over £30,000 for Syria a few months ago and have a target of 15k for Gaza, but they can raise more with more donations. They have a 100% donation policy.
www.omci.org.uk for more information and location.

somewheresafe · 05/08/2014 11:54

www.thisdayinwikileaks.org/2014/08/4-august-2014.html?m=1

Wiki leaks today: israel admits to the US it controls Gaza economy to keep it on the brink of collapse.
Israel admits it created Hamas to weaken the PLO.

Absolutely horrific to read that Israel deliberately keeps Gaza on the brink of an economic and humanitarian crisis. And still people support this vile inhumane regime.

Isitmebut · 05/08/2014 11:54

Have those in Gaza suffered for several years, while Hamas spends $$$several hundreds of millions in rockets for their own political survival - or are the 'people' wealthy and want for nothing?

A simple question, and remember the blockade etc was stepped up as Israel knew Hamas wanted to import weapons AS HAMAS HAVE PROVED, which also affected the citizens of Gaza.

Where would we now be, how prosperous would those in Gaza have been, if Hamas had not come to power, designated as terrorists by many in the West, and aid etc had NOT dried up?

Hamas without it's tunnels to Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood NEEDS the blockade to be lifted to bring in arms - STILL thinking of 'the people' I see.

justasecond · 05/08/2014 11:54

Well done to Baroness Warsi for making a stand.
That is a really moving tribute QU and I have joined the I remember page on FB.

creekyknees · 05/08/2014 11:57

BBC world news are saying that Spain are now refusing to arm Israel but i cant find it on their web site Confused

Better late than never.

Lets hope the rest of the world follows.

Isitmebut · 05/08/2014 12:02

somewheresafe ..... Hamas was an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, maybe 'events' created Hamas, but come on, "Israel created Hamas2? lolololol.

Did Israel write their Charter 'at the beginning' as well, calling for the State of Israel not to exist?

So how many $ billions over the last several years have Hamas spent on buying and producing rockets, missiles etc, as Israel tries to force the Hamas administration to spend it's money on a NON military economy??

TheHoneyBadger · 05/08/2014 12:11

please stop with the bold - it's generally considered rude to endlessly put large chunks of your text in bold or capital letters - it's like screaming loudly or stamping your feet and insisting on being seen.

we can all read.

try reading the wikileak report rather than ranting at posters who link to it.