Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

Your posts sound deranged, isitme - are you aware of that?

dingalong I'm actually very shocked and quite upset by their attacks on me. These are people who I looked up to in quite some awe and respect, who are funny and intelligent and kind. I've thought about disengaging and letting them carry on but through sheer bloody-mindedness I won't. These are people who matter, who inform others, lead opinions and influence policy. I think it's important to question them and even though I don't think I have any chance of changing their opinions I know that there are plenty of people looking on who might take pause and think about it and know that they are being challenged.

Well done for not disengaging Andharry.

I went on a demo recently and I can tell you it was very very peaceful and my son actually enjoyed. There were many children at the demo and families, older people of all races and religions. It was a great atmosphere and there was zero anti semitism. A rabbi at the event git the loudest cheers after a very moving speech.

There was no press except one guy with a camera who was desperately trying to find anti semitic posters and protestors. There were none.

It felt great to be actually doing something useful. The mood was buoyant and one of hope and positivity.

Save the children is this week taking full page ads to list the name of all the dead children. Very poignant but very very necessary. Those of you on fb please join the I remember the children page. It's amazing.

Well done for not disengaging Andharry.

I went on a demo recently and I can tell you it was very very peaceful and my son actually enjoyed. There were many children at the demo and families, older people of all races and religions. It was a great atmosphere and there was zero anti semitism. A rabbi at the event git the loudest cheers after a very moving speech.

There was no press except one guy with a camera who was desperately trying to find anti semitic posters and protestors. There were none.

It felt great to be actually doing something useful. The mood was buoyant and one of hope and positivity.

Save the children is this week taking full page ads to list the name of all the dead children. Very poignant but very very necessary. Those of you on fb please join the I remember the children page. It's amazing.

This link is for the poster who claimed that Eran Efrati was free to say what he liked, what with Israel being a democracy and all.

andharry nothing in my life prepared me for being asked by a friend I love and have known for years whether I was a 'holocaust denier'- it's as if he never knew me, or has discounted everything I've ever said or done.

i'm very sorry for the jewish posters having to face abuse for condemning israel's actions. without meaning to be offensive it just does scream of idolatry and placing false gods before me stuff to me. to me that's the whole point of the abrahamic religions really that there is ONE god and that followers are commanded not to place anything before that god - that doesn't just mean golden calves or other deities it means ANYTHING - re: nationalism, money, race and even one's own family.

to me there is nothing jewish, in the sense of the religion, about israel. it is a false god being worshipped in direct opposition to laws given to the people of the book.

i'm not jewish by the way obviously but was raised in religion (christianity) and whilst not a practising member of any faith now the principles and heart of religion and it's texts are a part of who i am and my world view and morality. as they are for most of us actually who are raised in nations whose legal systems and principles have arisen out of biblical morality.

it never ceases to amaze how far from the heart of their faith people who claim to be religious and 'of god' can stray.

That's harsh, springheeled.

To me, speaking out about gaza this has nothing to do with judaism, it is to do with the bombing and destruction of unarmed civilians by an army with vastly superior firepower. And my government's funding of this, and turning a blind eye to crimes against humanity.

No more, no less.

This kind of bullshit is what makes people think Israel claims superiority:

You couldn't possibly boycott us, we make everything you need because we're so superior

Just have a look at the last paragraph.

I think we can safely agree that we will be boycotting Garnier after they sent care packages to the Israeli military, so they can have swishy hair while they bomb babies and children, then wash their hands of blood while innocent civilians are left without water.

stream.aljazeera.com/story/201408041809-0024006

Yes to Garnier and is it also Loreal? The PSC and others have boycott stickers available. The pic of the soldiers with their Garnier stuff is grim. Alas, Ojon oil is now out and it's the only thing that's ever sorted out my straw like mop.

I wonder if there's mileage in speaking to pharmacists about different sources of medicines? Do pharmacists have a professional org? Union?

re medicines - you can speak to the pharmacists, but Teva are generally cheaper than the alternatives, and at the moment the NHS is a bit strapped for cash. Perhaps you could offer to put your hand in your pocket to make up the difference....

Lots of people have posted "you said xxx sergeantmajor so do you mean zzz". So let me say plainly what I do mean.
I am passionately in favour of peace.
I believe in a two-state solution.
I abhor war.
I believe all human life is equal.
I am deeply distressed by the civilian deaths.
I believe that this thread contains shocking factual inaccuracies and profound misunderstanding of the conflict.
I believe that at times this thread had crossed the line in terms of foam-flecked hate-filled rhetoric against Israel.
I do not believe that the anti-Israel voice on this thread is motivated by Islamic jihad, anti-semitism or anything other that compassion and morality.
I believe that this compassion for innocent victims of war has skewed many observers from seeing where the real crime lies.
I believe that those who wish the best for Palestinians would not support Hamas in any way.
I believe those on this thread who support the public aims of Hamas (annihilation of Israel) whilst theorising disapprovingly that Israel want the annihilation of the Palestinians are suffering deluded doublethink.
I believe that the Palestinian people are much better than their government and are as much the victims of Hamas as they are of Israel.

"Hakluyt - "Israel is targeting UN safe havens, where people have been told their children will be safe. There are no circumstances in which that is acceptable." How about this circumstance - when there are rockets hidden by Hamas under UN buildings and Hamas tell their citizens that they would be safe there. I feel your outrage is misdirected."

Sergeant-I would like to be clear here. Are you saying that under those circumstances, bombing a school full of children would be acceptable?

on the chemist front mine were really cooperative and helpful and able to source non israeli meds for me and note it on my repeat prescription that i never want israeli meds and if they can't source an alternative to not fill my prescription so i can shop around.

all of my meds are out of patent and available in generic form now which helps obviously. egypt is another big exporter of meds and at least as, if not cheaper than, israel.

I wont be be able to travel to London for the demo unfortunately. Have 3 kids under 5 and they don't like crowds and loud noises. There is a demo locally here on the same day so i will be able to get my DH to look after them while I go to the local protest.

Ok sergeantmajor, you wrote:

How about this circumstance - when there are rockets hidden by Hamas under UN buildings and Hamas tell their citizens that they would be safe there. I feel your outrage is misdirected."

So, answer your own question - how about it? Is it, in your opinion, acceptable for the IDF to bomb sleeping civilian children in a UN school if there are rockets there?

xpost with hakluyt

To all the humanity supporting jewish posters and those with family in Israel, A big thank you from me to you all

Several people have commented on the young age of Israeli soldiers.
This is because Israel is a small nation of about 7 million people. It would be impossible for them to maintain an army in the British manner, especially given that their neighbours have been in a state of implacable war with them for nearly three-quarters of a century. So they have a policy of conscription. All 18 year olds, including women, do national service (3 years for men, 2 years for women). University studies and working life begins after this national service. Israeli Arabs are exempt although you may be surprised to learn that some are patriotic and choose to serve. Druze Arabs and Bedouins serve alongside Jewish Israelis. Very religious Jews can apply for exemption although they sacrifice various civil privileges in doing so. The army remains a feature of all Israelis lives, with men serving in the reserves until the age of 51 and single women until the age of 24. When you hear on the news that Israel is calling up its reserves, then it means that middle aged men are being called from their desk jobs. It has a vast economic cost for the country but it is viewed by all as an absolute necessity for their precarious existence.

or try this - if hamas hid some bombs in YOUR house tomorrow (let's pretend they are actually there rather than just alleged to be) would you be cool with them blowing up your house and your sleeping children in response? or is it only ok if the house and the children belong to palestinians?

or let's say they thought a terrorist had hidden weapons in your child's school tomorrow - would you be ok with them blowing up the whole school with the children in it in response?

the idea of blowing up your child's school and all the kids in it would seem ok to you?

or is it only ok if you dehumanise those children and parents to the point where they're all dirty fucking death seeking not like us types first?