Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

Home yes he is the biggest evil. That's my opinion. I despise him.

And please don't patronise me. I can read perfectly well.

If you can read well, why did you misrepresent me? You said I'd asked if you thought Netanyahu was evil. I had not. Why did you do this?

I asked for the reasons behind your opinion. Assad has slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people so far, two orders of magnitude more than Netanyahu. The number of detainees who have been murdered by itself far exceeds the Gazan slaughter. Where Israeli torture of Palestinians includes vicious beatings, the Syrian mukhabarat's torture of Syrians includes rape, strangulation, starvation, and the pulling out of fingernails, teeth and hair.

For all the evil he's done, Netanyahu has nothing on Assad. It is hardly betraying Gazans to say so. It is, however, betraying Syrians.

Wow, just wow! homehelp are you for real?

somewhere gave her opinion. She doesnt have to make you understand it. In fact, many people do understand exactly what she means.

Do you think Netanyahu butchering thousands is better than someone butchering tens of thousands? Do you think Netanyahu butchering Palestinian children is better than someone butchering Syrian children? If it was your children that Netanyahu butchered, would you sit there and say, well actually Netanyahu isnt the biggest evil because Assad and ISIS have killed more and for all the evil he has done to me Nutty Yahu has nothing on Assad and therefore I shall not call him the biggest evil in order not to betray the Syrians!

I think Netanyahu is the biggest evil. I think ISIS are also the biggest evil. The difference is that nobody is falling over themselves trying to defend ISIS. All Israeli apologists on the other hand have tried to justify the butchering of Palestinian children as a necessary evil, but not the biggest evil, oh no! You want to compare degrees of evil do you. Its utterly pathetic and horrific.

Yes I'm for real

I said in my earlier post that I could understand a view that says there's no point in comparison. But I cannot understand a view that explicitly compares and concludes that Netanyahu is worse than Assad

And of course I think killing more people is worse and thus that killing less people is better. It doesn't make it good, it just makes it less bad.

I don't want to compare degrees of evil. But if other people do compare degrees of evil, as they did here, I am not going to leave the view that Netanyahu is the very worst evil of all, worse than every other, to go unchallenged.

I think you're seeing controversy and apology where it doesn't exist. I object to hyperbole. I don't think it serves the interests of Gazans. Things are bad enough that an accurate description of how bad they are is more than enough.

Killing innocent lives is never acceptable. Sadly war makers call this collateral damage.

Hamas has an obligation to protect its people, particularly those most vulnerable. Using schools, hospitals and other designated safe havens to store ammunition & weapons and as a launch pad for firing those ammunitions and weapons is not in any way taking responsibility for the safety of its people.

When they were building underground tunnels they would have been as well to create bunkers but I expect that wasn't their thinking.

Londongirl- just to be clear. You are saying that it it acceptable to bomb a UN safe haven full of sleeping children? Yes or no.

still reading and catching up - middleagewino i tried to send you a pm to clarify something (i didn't watch teh video so apologies if it sounded like i was agreeing on it's content) but it says you can't receive pms.

In the who is more evil competition, I would like to nominate the US arms manufacturers, war profiteers and spineless politicians. And the UK's, the drone manufacturers, stock marketeers, etc. For every despot in the Middle East has been aided and armed by us, and where there is conflict, both sides likely have.

It's clear that Assad is inexcusable, and so is Netanyahu. Both have been assisted for years by the US and the UK, just as with other despots and tyrants in the region.

it'll turn out that all of these evils are part of the same deal and agenda - eventually the money trail will come clear but it's fairly obvious where it will lead in terms of who has the most to gain in destabilising the middle east.

piglet john quote: *ISRAEL FINDS IT HAS NO ALTERNATIVE

..provided you take it as fact that:

• Israel cannot ever give back the land it has stolen
• Israel cannot give non-Jews full citizenship
• Israel cannot treat dispossessed Palestinians as human beings
• Israel is always right*

pretty hard bunch of conditions to sit at a negotiating table with right? err so basically your terms of peace are shut the fuck up, don't fight back and let us continuing taking whatever we want whenever we want it or we'll keep murdering your children and it will be your fault for not doing as you're told? hmm. let's think....

christ it's like living with an abusive man who tells you to put up and shut up or he'll beat your child and when, when you try to escape and he catches you and kills your child the world saying, well it's your own fault, you obviously didn't love your child or you'd have stayed and done as you were told.

Home I don't have to give you reasons for my opinion. It's self explanatory and I think I've more than explained myself over the threads.

If you want to discuss degrees of evil please do so. Preferably on a thread about degrees of evil.

Somewhere - you can give your opinion, and we can draw conclusions as to what has led you to it. By your logic, Tony Blair is the same as Saddam Hussain and the Taliban because all were responsible for the deaths of innocent children.

Netanyahu may be lots of things (he's not my cup of tea) but he's not a tyrant despot - if he loses the next election, he'll stand down, as he did before. That's quite a rare thing in the Middle East....

Hakluyt No I'm not saying that at all. It's deplorable. I actually feel so sad that so many innocent people of all ages are losing their lives over what seems such a futile argument. Religion really has no place in modern life, it's just another excuse to hate people.

Sam I don't think you have really understood my logic at all. Just as I will never understand your logic of supporting apartheid and occupation.

Logic and opinion are subjective. I hate chocolate but am sure others disagree.

For the record I also despise Tony Blair and agree with honey when she says all routes of evil and unrest seem to be leading back to the same sources.

Also, the iraqi PM has just stepped down. Not such a rare thing in the middle east as you state. Let's not always pretend israel is the only democracy and paragon of virtue in the middle east. It's racist and perpetuates the dehumanisation of Arabs. That's just my opinion btw.

Also, the iraqi PM has just stepped down. Not such a rare thing in the middle east as you state. Let's not always pretend israel is the only democracy and paragon of virtue in the middle east. It's racist and perpetuates the dehumanisation of Arabs. That's just my opinion btw.

The instability in that region has a great deal to do with the illegal invasion of Iraq by the UK and US.

This article by a former idf soldier discusses whether israel has gone too far (YES) and it's use of illegal ancillary fire. Israel4icc.

Link m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5673023?utm_hp_ref=tw

the instability is wanted and deliberately backed and perpetuated.

surely we've all learnt something in the first 14yrs of this century? the same tune has been playing for nearly the whole of it so far.

have just read the al jazeera piece about the so called 'telegenically dead'.

there is a quote in there that for me is the reason why every single person alive should be alert and care what is going on now, whether they are thousands of miles away, don't consider themselves political or whatever. the quote is, "there is no such thing as innocent civilians".

there is a massive line being stomped all over, spat on and erased from the sand here. everyone needs to ask themselves if they want to live in a world where there is no such thing as an innocent civilian and what such a world would like when the big boys play their power games.

Over thousands of posts, the SAME numb-nuts question is asked hundreds of times.

"You are saying that it it acceptable to bomb a UN safe haven full of sleeping children? Yes or no."

Question: How many asking that sick stupid question, is campaigning/trying to influence, the Islamic Jihadist Hamas, STARTING artillery wars with Israel, KNOWING the postage stamp Gaza will both get a firm response from Israel and numerous women and children casualties - NOT to do so?

How many REALLY expect Hamas to fire 3,300 missiles/rockets and NOT take any retaliation back?

There is a long term political problem here here and a current Palestinian innocents casualty problem - if the Hamas apologists REALLY care about those Palestinian casualties - why are you not campaigning against the men of Hamas STARTING artillery ping-pong with a far greater force that only ends one way?

ah yes, caring about the bombing of UN safe havens full of children with our government saying, 'we support you' makes us numb-nuts.

nice one.

i'd rather be a numb-nut than a sadist.

note the resort to bold nothing if not predictable.