Struggling with a friend's decision to pursue surrogacy overseas

[idontknowhowtodreamyourdreams]

I am feeling so angry and upset about a situation I have found myself in with a dear friend who I have known since we were at primary school (now 40s).

A caveat from me - have 3 dc of my own and don’t pretend to understand how it feels to v much want to be a parent and be unable to be one.

My friend (gay, male) asked me about 4 or 5 years ago if I would be a surrogate for him and his husband. For all kinds of reasons, it was a firm and immediate no from me. Tbh it was unexpected and I felt inwardly horrified. It would not have been right for me personally and I have a whole range of ethical issues re surrogacy in any event. No reservations about my friend’s ability to parent, he would be great.

My “no” really impacted our friendship. He was upset and hurt and I felt it has taken us a long time to recover the friendship. I explained why I said no at the time. He struggled to understand and still does, there has been a lot of anger on both our sides over this. He is in the midst of going through the process to be considered for adoption. I thought he was and his husband were committed to this - they would be great parents.

Seemingly out of nowhere he told me a few days ago about plans to go overseas and give surrogacy “a whirl”. Cyprus, I think, but also considering Albania.

I know they can do what they think is right for them. But I am so upset by this decision- to go overseas and pay someone desperate for the cash for a child, the power dynamics, the transactional nature. The whole “I am entitled to this” mindset.

It is not my business. But I don’t think I can get my head around it.

I just need somewhere to vent.

YABU not kicking those 'friends' into touch completely when they got awks with you for not agreeing to surrogacy.

Bin them off, give no more headspace.

I’ve thought about this subject a lot over the years. I don’t believe that paying a desperate woman to hire her womb is any different from prostitution, which is illegal for good reason. I don’t like the idea of paying someone money to use their body, and feel it is morally repugnant to do so (like celebrities) if you can’t have children and you have someone in your life kind enough to offer, that is a completely different situation. This is based on love and respect, not a monetary contract. I would feel very uncomfortable with this.

i am against surrogacy as it seems like another way to traffic in women's bodies, and this male friend of yours seems to think he's entitled to them from the way he reacted to you saying no to the use of yours. but it seems like that was also foreshadowing, i am surprised you didn't dump his as a friend when he was mad at you for not being a surrogate but of course personal relationships can be really complicated and not that simple.

This thread and the guardian story of the gay couple who are fighting to get surrogacy on insurance has made me feel physically nauseous. I like many women have life long health issues due to pregnancy complications, complications moreover that surrogate pregnancies are higher risk for. That a man could be annoyed that a woman (op) has not put her body and those risks to her health, even her life at his service when he asked is enraging.

And the gay couple in the guardians totting up of the costs and saying they can’t afford to pay a surrogate’s lost wages for doctors appointments, who the fuck do they think pays those costs in a normal pregnancy? Who has the hit on her career, pays for pregnancy clothes? Getting pregnant and having children has an enormous financial hit on any women especially those in a professional role. They are so fucking cheap as well as being entitled.

At least one of them comes from an extremely wealthy background, so they're even cheaper than you'd think

Tbh I'd have given pretty short shrift to anyone who dared express anger at not being able to use my body at their wish.

Genuine 'mutually agreed' surrogacy is a harder topic for me. I'm not convinced it's as bad as paying young men to go and get blown up/maimed in foreign countries to fulfil the wishes of middle aged politicians. Especially when you consider it was often seen as the only choice for intellectually challenged boys or those from deprived areas with little prospects.

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The gay couple I know of who trafficked a baby from the USA, spent over $150,000 excluding legal fees and flights. The mother was extremely unwell, the baby was born too soon and, completely against medical advice, they flew him to their home country before he’d even reached his due date. Not before using the mother once more to gain a passport with which to do so.
Surrogacy is a horrific trade and I sincerely hope that they won’t be able to afford it. The damage it must do to babies and their mothers (not to mention the women they purchase eggs from) is utterly abhorrent.

YANBU. Absolutely disgusting for anyone to buy a baby and wrench it from its mother.

Which USA state was this?

1000% agree

’altruistic’ surrogacy (which doesn’t truly exist in the UK given the high ‘expenses’ often paid) still raises ethical issues regarding impact on the DC, eg of separation, not knowing biological parent(s).

To clarify the legal reality: under UK law, a baby born via US surrogacy cannot simply be brought into the country undocumented. The parents must clear strict UK immigration controls and immediately apply to a High Court judge for a Parental Order. The High Court scrutinises the case entirely to ensure the surrogate's absolute consent. Legally, a medical dispute over a hospital discharge timeline does not alter a fully authorised, lawful immigration route. The process of leaving the US with a baby legally conceived and born through surrogacy will take an absolute minimum of 5 weeks, with a formal court hearing in the State the baby was born into, following which a US passport must be legally obtained.

Do you know, does the baby stay with the birth mum during those 5 weeks? Or does the baby stay with the commissioning couple but it's just not "official" yet?

Commissioning couple, which is why UK law around overseas surrogacy is essentially entirely unenforced. What happens when a case that is clearly buying a baby comes is that the judge says 'well, I don't much like this, but my job is to act in the interest of the child, and at this point the child has been living with you for weeks, the birth mother is in a different country and doesn't want them back, so leaving the child with you rather than ordering them to be put in social services care is obviously the best option for the child.' Which is obviously right, but also means there is essentially no risk to buying a baby abroad no matter how egregiously you flout UK law.

Someone posted this on here a while ago and I found it shocking.

https://archive.ph/nrRxX

I always think l have heard the peak of male entitlement and then l hear something eise that tops it

I wish I hadn't read that. I feel sick. That poor poor woman having a traumatic stillbirth and being relentlessly hounded afterwards. I hope she and her son are ok now and will get compensation for it all one day. The story doesn't even get resolved

The issue is that invariably one of the commissioning parents is the biological father, and there is a presumption that children should be with one of their biological parents. Try bringing an unrelated baby in - international adoption is very rare these days partly for this reason.

That couple sound absolutely insane

What confuses me is, are there no questions asked at the border? Does the baby already have a passport? You have to register a baby including registering who the parents are, before getting their passport.

It took months to get round to getting my children's passports after they were born (and they were born here the boring way). I had to answer loads of questions at registration, to prevent fraud, even though I had a letter from the hospital where they were both born.

What you are describing is, a baby is born in another country to mother X. The baby is presumably registered and gets a British passport (how?) or a foreign passport?Presumably with commissioning parents Y and Z on the paperwork. Then Y, Z and the baby all get on a flight back to the UK and this all happens before the baby is a few months old?

I didn't think it was that easy to get a random baby a passport (one you didn't give birth to yourself). It's a bit alarming, it's like you could kidnap a baby abroad.

I guess what I'm wondering is, are they granting British passports abroad to babies born of non-British mothers, so quickly that they can be brought here "before their due date" as Splunkle describes? It's astonishing.

Or can you fly babies without passports? I must admit I don't know. I assumed babies needed passports to fly and I got mine one before visiting relatives abroad.

That would be an end of the friendship for me. Surrogacy is wrong imho.
There are many things I want in life but for various reasons cannot have. Sometimes its necessary to accept that there are things we cant have. Its sad/frustrating but que sera sera.

That's easy to say when you haven't had fertility issues hey? Would you say it as easy to a woman that's desperate for a child or is your real problem that it's a gay man?