Struggling with a friend's decision to pursue surrogacy overseas

[idontknowhowtodreamyourdreams]

I am feeling so angry and upset about a situation I have found myself in with a dear friend who I have known since we were at primary school (now 40s).

A caveat from me - have 3 dc of my own and don’t pretend to understand how it feels to v much want to be a parent and be unable to be one.

My friend (gay, male) asked me about 4 or 5 years ago if I would be a surrogate for him and his husband. For all kinds of reasons, it was a firm and immediate no from me. Tbh it was unexpected and I felt inwardly horrified. It would not have been right for me personally and I have a whole range of ethical issues re surrogacy in any event. No reservations about my friend’s ability to parent, he would be great.

My “no” really impacted our friendship. He was upset and hurt and I felt it has taken us a long time to recover the friendship. I explained why I said no at the time. He struggled to understand and still does, there has been a lot of anger on both our sides over this. He is in the midst of going through the process to be considered for adoption. I thought he was and his husband were committed to this - they would be great parents.

Seemingly out of nowhere he told me a few days ago about plans to go overseas and give surrogacy “a whirl”. Cyprus, I think, but also considering Albania.

I know they can do what they think is right for them. But I am so upset by this decision- to go overseas and pay someone desperate for the cash for a child, the power dynamics, the transactional nature. The whole “I am entitled to this” mindset.

It is not my business. But I don’t think I can get my head around it.

I just need somewhere to vent.

I think the absolute best reading of this is that he is hopelessly naive about the reality of childbearing and what it does to and means to the woman doing it. The more likely reading is that he doesn't care. I think you should try and explain why this is so repulsive - if he's not willing to listen I think that gives you the answer as to whether or not the friendship has a future.

Actually thinking about it, of those two scenarios I'd be even more disgusted about a male friend trying to coerce me into surrogacy than sex, as 1) with the sex he could be deluded that I'd enjoy it, whereas no woman ever would enjoy pregnancy, childbirth, followed by being separated from their baby... and 2) it wouldn't come with the very real risk of life changing birth injuries or even death.

He's no better than a creepy friend trying to use you for sex, he is actually worse.

If you know which adoption agency they are with, I'd contact them. And tell them everything you've said here.

He has displayed enormous red flags already.

& it's sooooo saaaaaadddd that he a gay man who 'wants' a baby .

Tough shit, we don't all get what we want. when we don't it's also not the adult/ decent/right thing to do to stamp your feet & run rough shod over everybody else because YOU Want

The agency they have applied to re an adoption assessment would not continue an assessment alongside them actively pursuing surrogacy if they knew. Where potential adopters have pursued fertility treatment they want to see a gap before adoption application and to see that an applicant has come to terms with moving on from this. I’d have concerns about them as adopters as they don’t sound committed to an adopted child.

I do know @GreenFootstool . I am away with my kids for a few days but I am going to think it over and act on my return. I would assume that the adoption agency has asked for confirmation that there is no ongoing fertility treatment etc, so they would potentially be in breach of that if they went ahead.

Exactly. It's no different to a lonely single man who really wants sex, poor man, why will no woman give it to him...

It's two sides of the same coin: men seeing women as NPCs, who only exist to give men what they want.

I am not surprised you are upset.

Paid surrogacy overseas is abusive and misogynistic. It exploits poor women for the benefit of the rich. The physical and mental toll on the surrogate is enormous.

People who pursue this are equally unethical as those people who were in the news for having exchanged Aid and Food packages for sexual services in refugee camps - it's the same thing, to use a desperately poor woman's body for your own benefit when she would not consent if she wasn't desperate means the consent is invalid.

This would be friendship-ending for me. It would be no less bad than if he was a rapist.

Having a child is not a right.

Not if you are straight, gay, female or male.

I understand the longing but not this.

It seems to me that he isn’t considering the woman/women or the child/children.

Just himself.

I’d not want to have someone in my life who thought only of themselves and to hell with everyone else.

eta

It just doesn’t bode well for the child to grow up seeing this attitude and being of the opinion that everything can be yours if you throw enough money at it.

So weird how rarely rich women feel moved to want to have a baby for a poor woman, and how frequently it happens the other way round, isn't it?

Thanks @Rubickscubed , this confirms that I had thought/assumed, ie that they would want potential adopters to be absolutely committed to the adoption and not pursuing other options and still dealing with the aftermath of fertility treatment.

I'll get slaughtered for this, The older I get the more i believe that children should be brought into the world by 2 parents who want them. With a male & female role model.

Yea I know that life does not always work that way. I know couples split up. one or both parents turn out to be awful parents. However it's cruel & unethical to deliberately start a child's life knowing that the child doesn't have the possibility of a good start

you say he is 40s, how far into his 40s ?

He's not your friend.

He's proved that already with his attitude to you saying no. You are allowed to say no. Getting angry and upset about your no, says he isn't suitable to be a parent and I'd have problems with that alone. He has a really bad attitude to women.

Then deciding because you have said no, he wants to buy and traffic a baby. That would leave me stone cold. It doesn't matter if he's gay or straight. He's an arrogant entitled tosser who doesn't centre children.

The friendship would be long gone for me. You have done well to maintain it this long. Cut him out of your life and don't look back. He will need to get used to this response as plenty of people feel the same so you'll be doing him a favour by letting him get to know and understand this early on.

Exactly what I was going to say! 100%

There's so many Hollywood actresses who have been surrogates for other people.

Oh wait.

No.

This is always the tell. It's commodifying children like a handbag. If you are rich enough you can always buy one.

Another thing to consider re the adoption process, if they’ve only just started the process are they using you as a personal reference? They would be putting their referees in a very difficult position if also pursuing being biological parent - are they expecting referees to lie. I would be telling the agency.

Really, the number of altruistic surrigates is tiny. They are much publicised because it helps to sanitise a highly dubious industry which involves international people trafficking and imo lends it an undeserved veneer of respectability.

Women are being trafficked to be surrogates. Husbands and fathers are forcing their female relatives to do it and taking all the money. That's much more likely than finding an altruistic surrogate, especially abroad.

OP - you are totally entitled to your feelings about surrogacy. But - going and informing the adoption agency? Seriously?? This is beyond normal. I an not sure how to even call this - vindictive? maliciously judgemental? controlling? And to what end?

You have your right to your moral opinions. So does he. Running two processes in parallel is not against any rules. The probability that he and his partner would be accepted for adoption is very low anyway.

As to surrogacy - people can disagree on that, but you have NO right to forcefully impose your views on others. And yes - someone with 3 kids, and an ability to give birth to children can not understand people who can not have kids on their own.

You really should step away from this friendship if you can not control your desire to impose your will on others.

He sounds horribly entitled. I'm not sure I could get past that.

Sashya it is 100percent against adoption rules,of course it is. Please OP do let the agency know,it is awful to think how long they would leave the adoption process running when they are doing this,it's heartbreaking.

I’d be very surprised if the agency know they are pursing becoming a parent biologically, in addition to applying to adopt. It will be against the “rules” and if they are hiding it, then that’s dishonest and wasting the time of incredibly resource limited social workers. The purpose of telling the agency is to safeguard children who may be placed with them if approved, often from backgrounds of trauma, to adopters not committed to adoption.

The fact that he has been stroppy and resentful about your refusal to be a surrogate, the fact that he's willing to exploit a poor woman overseas in this way, and the fact that he's happy to decieve the adoption agency about his surrogacy wishes when it's known that this will be detrimental to an adopted child, demonstrate that he's not capable of being a good parent at all, whether by adoption or surrogacy or any other means. He is too selfish, any child under his care will only be welcome as long as they are compliant to his will. He is not capable of the unconditional love that parenthood requires. The adoption agency should be told because any child placed with him will be miserable.

@Sashya i think it is against the rules of the agency tbh. I will give it thought but am not ruling it out. What if they go ahead and get further into the process of welcoming a child and then walk away due to the surrogacy? That would be awful for any child.

To all who say that OP needs to inform the agency....
Presumably - if you had heterosexual friends who applied for adoption, and continued to have unprotected sex - you'd also advise the agency that they are having sex, and effectively also pursuing biological routes?

This is such ridiculous argument.

The fact that they are considering surrogacy DOES NOT make this couple a safeguarding risk. This is a ridiculous statement, and possibly homophobic too.
I know people who applied for adoption, and ended up also getting pregnant. They proceeded with adoption and now have two children. These processes are not mutually exclusive, and things do happen.

There is nothing to suggest that this couple would not proceed with adoption, if they also have a biological child. There is no certainly in anything atm - OP doesn't even know if the talk of surrogacy is serious, or an idea. So - she'll essentially be informing the agency about a conversation where her friends said they "may be considering" something....

But, most importantly - to me the issue is that OP, and many people on here, seem to be so militantly intent on enforcing their morals on others. Orthodoxy like that is terrible, in my opinion. Both ends of the spectrum on any moral issue seem to be the same - given a choice, they chose dictatorial approach to enforce their beliefs. Which is terrible. IMHO.

I think this can be the case in some limited circumstances but hardly ever when people go abroad to poorer countries. Especially where it’s legal to be outright paid for it. It’s then just 2 British people buying a womb and a baby.

I know 2 men who went to Mexico and paid life changing amounts of money for a surrogate.

OP I think the friendship would have been over for me when they didn’t easily accept the no from you.