Struggling with a friend's decision to pursue surrogacy overseas

[idontknowhowtodreamyourdreams]

I am feeling so angry and upset about a situation I have found myself in with a dear friend who I have known since we were at primary school (now 40s).

A caveat from me - have 3 dc of my own and don’t pretend to understand how it feels to v much want to be a parent and be unable to be one.

My friend (gay, male) asked me about 4 or 5 years ago if I would be a surrogate for him and his husband. For all kinds of reasons, it was a firm and immediate no from me. Tbh it was unexpected and I felt inwardly horrified. It would not have been right for me personally and I have a whole range of ethical issues re surrogacy in any event. No reservations about my friend’s ability to parent, he would be great.

My “no” really impacted our friendship. He was upset and hurt and I felt it has taken us a long time to recover the friendship. I explained why I said no at the time. He struggled to understand and still does, there has been a lot of anger on both our sides over this. He is in the midst of going through the process to be considered for adoption. I thought he was and his husband were committed to this - they would be great parents.

Seemingly out of nowhere he told me a few days ago about plans to go overseas and give surrogacy “a whirl”. Cyprus, I think, but also considering Albania.

I know they can do what they think is right for them. But I am so upset by this decision- to go overseas and pay someone desperate for the cash for a child, the power dynamics, the transactional nature. The whole “I am entitled to this” mindset.

It is not my business. But I don’t think I can get my head around it.

I just need somewhere to vent.

@FinallyMummy thanks for sharing your experience and your honesty.

i am returning home from holiday tomorrow and I think I will need to inform the agency. Anything else would feel very wrong.

He’s not your friend. If he was he wouldn’t ever have asked you. He saw you as a walking womb. He’s revolting and surrogacy is too.

People on here are very quick to judge. For starters - OP does not even know that her friend is planning to stay in the adoption process IF they in fact go for surrogacy. There are many unknowns.
I am not suggesting that it's a good idea to pursue both avenues. Or that it's ok to hide a surrogate pregnancy from the agency.

However - I do think that the fact that it is about surrogacy makes people into zealots. In most other cases - if an OP came here saying - Friend X is thinking about doing something I don't agree with, should I tell on them.... They'd be told to stay out of it and not play judge/executioner. Let the friend know what you think, but also leave them to make their own choices.

But in this case - pitchforks are out immediately.

@idontknowhowtodreamyourdreams - of course telling on your friend is morally dubious. You don't know what they are actually doing. And they have not in fact done anything. Thinking and considering surrogacy - is not actually arranging it. So - they have not yet done anything wrong.

Equally - you don't know for sure that IF they go for surrogacy - that they won't inform the agency.
You are making the worst possible assumption about your friend. And all because of your need to force him into your way of seeing the world. A classic definition of a zealot.
So yes - you are trying to justify it to yourself.

You will do whatever you do - but at least be honest with yourself on why it is so important for you to have an upper hand in that over your friend.

If there's nothing at all wrong with what the friend is doing then why would it be a problem if the OP told the agency?

@Sashya your moral compass is broken. Your reply is appropriate for if someone says "I'm thinking of fiddling my expenses" or "I'm thinking of faking a sickie for an extra day off for my holiday".

The OP's actual scenario is more like "I'm thinking of paying someone to traffic a vulnerable woman into slavery for me" - it's not just a minor misdemeanor, it shows him to be an utterly repellent person even if he doesn't go through with it.

In most other cases - if an OP came here saying - Friend X is thinking about doing something I don't agree with, should I tell on them.... They'd be told to stay out of it and not play judge/executioner.

Oh ffs this isn't just "something I don't agree with", like not recycling. We are talking about paying mothers to separate them from their newborn babies.

The only people who can stomach the idea are people who deliberately try not to think about it too hard

Cross posted with this. 100%

Your take on this is very strange @Sashya Whats your skin in the game?

This man has lied by omission to the adoption agency after starting the process of applying to be an adopter.

He has asked OP to carry a baby for him.

When told no she wouldn't do it, he has become angry about it and doesn't seem to understand why she, a friend, declined to participate in this.

He has displayed zero insight into the friendship which he has blown up - not because of the initial request but because of. His behaviour in the aftermath of being told. No.

He is seeking surrogacy in a other country.

Lies, anger and not understanding how enormous his request was of the OP are all reasons he may be unsuited to be granted adoption at this time. And the agency need to know this, not have information hidden from them.

Angry men and small children who are already dealing with the trauma of being removed from parents, foster families or caregivers are a terrible combination.

@GreenFootstool it was his response to me saying no that shook me, way more than the original request, absolutely. But what I find equally concerning is the fact that he presumably knows this is not permitted by the adoption agency, with good reason, and yet thinks he can do it under the radar and effectively “hedge his bets” - this has really, really angered me.

Yes and correctly so.

It's narcisism. He has no concept of the idea of the child's best interests coming first. He wants a child for his own benefit and actually doesn't care if the mechanism(s) by which this is achieved causes damage to the child. The pain he would cause to either the adopted child or the trafficked and bought child are irrelevant to him.

Being against child trafficking and buying babies = zealotry?

No I don't think so.

We see you.

I am not on board with deliberately denying children a mother. Does anyone even think about the rights of these kids?

Zealotry is stating that considering surrogacy is like "thinking of paying someone to traffic a vulnerable woman into slavery for me".
Surrogacy is legal in many developed countries. It is regulated in countries where it is legal. You may not agree with it, but it does not make it any less legal. It is not trafficking.

I understand it that people have strong opinions on surrogacy. But you also must understand that on that - you are not different from for eg zealots that oppose abortion and are willing to do morally questionable things in the name of their correct moral stance.

My skin in the game? Hoping that liberals do not turn out as bad as the other side of the moral divide. It's a matter of principle. Ends do not justify means - not if in the process you inform on your friend because of your moral opposition to their view on a divisive issue.

Do you think this person sounds like a fit and appropriate adopter @Sashya ?

@Sashya are you thinking of the possible children in this situation?

Why are you friends with this entitled arsehole?

Am I missing something, why do you hope the possible child isn’t a girl/daughter?

Personally I think you are sticking your beak into something that has nothing to do with you. He probably made light of the conversation, given your response to his request.

You were perfectly fine to say no. But judging his choices on something you clearly want nothing to do with and therefore is even less of your business.

Just call it. You dont like and judge his choices - be honest and end the friendship.

FWIW - I have a friend who was a surrogate to a family friend (lesbian couple). It was a beautiful, considered and intentional pregnancy. The little one knows her birth story and her biological mother, so surrogacy is not always bad. Or is it only bad when its men wanting to be parents?

@sash child marriage is legal in many countries. FGM is legal in many countries Regulated even. Does that make it ok then?

Commerical Surrogacy is not legal in the UK. Why is that? Why is it OK to try to bypass UK laws?

Lots of people don’t have DC when they would have wanted to. Men just can’t bear not to have everything they want.

I note that he and his DH are not contemplating fostering children - even though there’s a desperate need for foster carers.

Lots of people can’t be parents. Gay men aren’t unique and it’s not homophobic to say this!

Your feelings are 💯 % valid. His are deeply troubling, much as I feel for anyone that can’t have kids of their own. I feel for any child that could come into the world this way and eventually realise. I struggle with very close family doing it, but intra-country for cash to an impoverished woman is no way to start a life.

How about find something original to say 😂😂😂 lots of children don't have mother's and are perfectly fine also giving birth doesn't automatically make you a mother mine wasn't a real mother I was glad when she died

It's only bad when it's men wanting children I doubt they'd have the guts to say it to a woman who couldn't have a child

The slave trade was also legal for many hundreds of years. Does that mean it was ok at that time? Does that mean that that wasn’t human trafficking?

There are many many countries where many of what we would call human rights violations are still “legal” in those countries .

Legal does not equate to ethical.