Struggling with a friend's decision to pursue surrogacy overseas

[idontknowhowtodreamyourdreams]

I am feeling so angry and upset about a situation I have found myself in with a dear friend who I have known since we were at primary school (now 40s).

A caveat from me - have 3 dc of my own and don’t pretend to understand how it feels to v much want to be a parent and be unable to be one.

My friend (gay, male) asked me about 4 or 5 years ago if I would be a surrogate for him and his husband. For all kinds of reasons, it was a firm and immediate no from me. Tbh it was unexpected and I felt inwardly horrified. It would not have been right for me personally and I have a whole range of ethical issues re surrogacy in any event. No reservations about my friend’s ability to parent, he would be great.

My “no” really impacted our friendship. He was upset and hurt and I felt it has taken us a long time to recover the friendship. I explained why I said no at the time. He struggled to understand and still does, there has been a lot of anger on both our sides over this. He is in the midst of going through the process to be considered for adoption. I thought he was and his husband were committed to this - they would be great parents.

Seemingly out of nowhere he told me a few days ago about plans to go overseas and give surrogacy “a whirl”. Cyprus, I think, but also considering Albania.

I know they can do what they think is right for them. But I am so upset by this decision- to go overseas and pay someone desperate for the cash for a child, the power dynamics, the transactional nature. The whole “I am entitled to this” mindset.

It is not my business. But I don’t think I can get my head around it.

I just need somewhere to vent.

Equally you can't say for certain that they wouldn't be.
And I doubt either way the question is anywhere on the bloke's radar.

Not sure what country you are in. In the UK I don’t believe an adoption agency/local authority would proceed with an adoption placement where there is a pregnancy or recently born baby. My knowledge is several years old, but agencies used to say there should be a gap of around 5 years between youngest birth child and adopted child, based on high level of need that an adopted child can have. That may have changed, but I’d be very surprised if a UK agency knows a couple is proceeding with an application and pursuing surrogacy. If its ok I assume the couple have been honest. Yes people who struggle with fertility find they are pregnant and withdraw from adoption process. They may reapply years later.

You do realise that there are far fewer children looking for adoption than there are adoptive parents. And that the chances that a gay couple would be a first choice even smaller?

And - what basis do you have for saying that this is a scenario that is likely?
Have you asked them - what they'd went both ways were successful? (unlikely as it is)? Adoption process is long - and many couples go through it unsuccessfully. Some are not picked, others leave at different stages as their life circumstances change. Children are usually small and well shielded throughout.
Point is - you have no idea on what they are thinking, and you also have no idea what stages these various processes entail. Yet you think you need to step in.

Also - it seems to me that you are trying to rationalise your morally dubious choice of telling on your friend purely because you disagree with their opinion on surrogacy. And your main motivator is not a hypothetical well-being of a child - let's be honest about that at least. Your main motivator is to have an upper hand in a moral argument you have with your friend. And THAT I find the most worrying.

I am infertile and when through years of fertility treatment ti have my children. I would have used a surrogate had it not worked for me. I find it really difficult when women that have had the privilege of fertility comment on how upset they are. You have no clue the lengths you would to go to in that situation. I used an egg donor I am sure plenty of people have an issue with that but I don’t care. I got to have my family after 10 years of pure grief.

I don't care if it is a gay or straight couple. Surrogacy from a poorer country is wrong . I hate that celebrity people make it sound like it's all nice and neat . And get no questioning it backlash when they announce it as if it was some sort of miracle birth . A woman somewhere had to put her body through this and give her baby away . Unless it is truly altruistic like a family member , no woman who didn't need the money would do this .

It absolutely IS against the rules.

Adoption agencies carefully select people to assess for adoption. It costs them a lotbof money to take people through the process and they only get recompensed when a child is placed. They want to be sure that anyone they recruit is not going to drop out.

And if they knew aboutcsurrogacy plans they would immediately walk away. Not just about the time and money but also the lying to them. And the fact that to adopt you have to be 100% committed to taking a child with probably a trauma background and an uncertain future in order to give them the chance of family life. Adoption is NOT about providing adults with children - it is about providing a home for a child. And if you are still thinking you want your own biological child after all, that will discard you, because they know you just want a child

Yes. Yes I would.

My nephew is an adopted child - adopted by my gay DB and his Dh no less.

Dh and I tried to adopt due to male infertility, but were turned down due to my chronic migraine despite being told it wouldn't matter - we were months into the process by then, doing the courses, writing the coursework, prepping the friends and family, social work visits and meetings, l the paperwork.... It's a huge process and very intrusive.

This is a serious commitment to the child or children you take on and pissing about isn't sensible or accepted.

Actually, I do. I haven't been able to have kids and surrogacy is still child trafficking.

Male entitlement is his starting point, and he probably hasn’t passed Go , in terms of what this actually means for the mother involved, and then the baby. I genuinely think he probably genuinely doesn’t have a fucking clue. He just wants, so he’s going to get.

I can see your point about the adoption agency but I thought that adoption agencies take into account whether a couple are still trying for/hopeful for a biological child. Not that it would be a firm no if they were but I imagine the adoption agency would discuss the situation and various scenarios with the couple.

Aren a lot of our laws based on moral judgments though? In the U.K. surrogates can only be paid expenses, surely there’s a level of moral judgement involved in even the existence of that law?

Sashya you don't understand about adoption and the adoption process at all.Of course you can't try for a baby in any way if also trying to adopt,it's completely against the rules as you put it. If people have had IVF they still have to wait at least 6 months before starting the process and have to be fully committed to the idea of an adopted child as its all about the child. You aren't accepted on to the process if you are are trying for a baby.Such huge cost and time for all those social workers involved being wasted if they are lying to the agency like this and extremely and lifechangingly damaging to the future of the child they get matched with if they end up pulling out.

I couldn't have children and i wouldn't have used a surrogate. I didn't use an egg provider either. I adopted. It isn't just the fertile who are against surrogacy.

I would not be friends with this man. No-one asks for the loan of someone's body as a reasonable friendship request, asks them to give up a baby and then gets pissy when they don't want to to it. The friendship is over.

I wouldn't be motivated to involve myself further than that, he may not go ahead with surrogacy, or adoption, and I think it's up to those agencies to monitor this and to find out what people are doing and saying. I wouldn't report him as there's nothing to report, they won't be the first or last adopters who are also thinking of how to have a biological child, so let the adoption agencies work this out, if indeed that's what's happening.

Christ, he's abusive if he did anything but 'oh god, totally understand, really sorry, hope you understand why I asked, love you so much' etc etc.

Men who rent women's bodies for fucking or gestating don't see those women as fully human.

ETA: and they certainly don't have the baby they are buying's interests at heart.

I don't understand the argument that it's fine for him to buy a baby because it's hard to be gay and not be able to have one. It's just as hard for gay men who happen to be poor, and so can't buy a baby.

This is a great article on gay men and their demands to be parents https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/oct/01/how-gay-parenthood-through-surrogacy-became-a-battleground

Wouldn’t want to remain in contact with a man who thought he was entitled to use your body, at your risk, was angry with you for saying no, and now thinks he’s entitled to pay another woman (in a much worse economic position than him) to use her body, at her risk.

I think it is disgusting that a man thinks it is ok to purchase a baby.

However, if you want to keep your friendship I think you need to accept that it is not for you to stop him doing something that is perfectly legal, no matter how exploitative.

Does he really understand how much work a baby is though, and how much it will impact on his life for years to come? There’s no wife here to take the brunt of it all…

I am in the UK.

I don’t think I have made any “morally dubious” choices @Sashya.

My friend has told me that they are narrowing down clinics re surrogacy. At the same time, they are continuing with the adoption pathway. I think this would breach the agency’s rules re not pursuing fertility treatment while pursuing adoption. And that isn’t homophobic.

@Dozer this is what I am asking myself. I have never seen this side of him before, I had thought they were committed to adoption and his anger at me had simply been hurt and surprise that I said no in a quick and blunt fashion. But yeah, I don’t know if I can or want to continue the friendship.

He was upset and hurt because you wouldn't put your body at his disposal!? What an entitled POS.

Also, no understanding on his part of the emotional aspect of bonding with the little human that is part of you, until it isn't.

I would have immediately ended this friendship based on his reaction to you saying no to growing his baby.

It would have also made me doubt his ability to be a good parent. And his capacity as a decent human being.

Disgustingly selfish response from him. Women die giving birth. Many women’s bodies often are permanently damaged.

He’s a thick and selfish piece of shit. If he buys a baby via surrogacy I’d have no further contact with him.

You are totally right to refuse your friend and he is not entitled to feel angry at your decision!

If the adoption services are UK then I am sure they would very very unhappy if they knew this couple were considering surrogacy during the adoption process (we adopted 12 years ago).

My sister asked me to be a surrogate but I’ve been told after my second I shouldn’t have any more. She went mental when I said no and didn’t speak to me for ages. I probably would’ve done it if I could to be honest but her reaction to me saying no was extreme!

@Sashya I don't know where you're getting your info from but most of it is incorrect from my (fairly recent) experience of adoption.

I was asked if we'd undergone fertility treatment and categorically told they wouldn't consider us without at least 1 year between the end of any treatment and start of adoption process, plus they wanted to be confident we'd accepted the reality of not having a biological child.

We had to confirm if we had an active sex life and any contraception and were told a pregnancy would halt the adoption process until a biological child was at least 2. We were told we shouldn’t be trying.

The number of Adoptive parents who are successful in approval panel and then matched is tiny in comparison to the amount of children in the system needing a stable home. In my area the ratio is approximately 6 children to 1 set of parents.

OP I think there a few different issues here but the most urgent is your friends decision to go through both adoption and surrogacy at the same time.
The possible outcomes are:

1. having 1 or 2 traumatised children brought into his home (regardless of surrogacy opinions, a baby removed from a birth parent for any reason will have some form of trauma) with potentially differing ages, histories and needs and one or both of these children's needs not being met.
2. Wasting everyone's time by being approved then backing out of the adoption process (it's not clear what stage he's at)
3. Having a child placed with him, having a child via surrogacy and social workers having to review whether the child placed will be more or less unsettled by staying in a home that they wouldn't have approved of or moved again (possibly to new foster carers if the old ones aren't able to take them back).

None of those outcomes have the wellbeing of any child at the centre.
And worryingly, if he's anywhere passed the initial stages of the process, he will have recently had training on the causes and effects of trauma and should know this isn't a good idea.

Plus, the adoption process is intrusive and they are very clear that honesty is required. Often they'll work with you but hiding something is an immediate red flag.
For those reasons, I'd be informing the adoption agency.

The other issues would end the friendship for me. The fact he asked you to be a surrogate I think is fine, but being angry at you for not being willing to take such a high risk with your own health and your ability to parent your own children would end the relationship for me.

Lastly, opinions on surrogacy. FWIW I agree with you.
Infertility does strange things to you and we researched every option, including surrogacy. My sister even offered to do it for us at one point but I couldn't bring myself to do it when the biology didn't matter to me and there were children existing that needed what we had.

Surrogacy by definition is essentially paying rent for someone's body and buying a baby, especially the way it's done abroad. Some people are fine with that but it's quite a big difference to have between friends.

My personal opinion is that no matter what you do now, you're not going to look at him in the same way and your friendship will either be tainted or over. Sorry OP.