The Amber Heard / Johnny Depp Case

[TheFeministShrug]

Now, I am not defending Amber here. It sounds like she was abusive towards Johnny, but it also seems that he was abusive too. I think this is one of those rare cases where they're both as bad as each other.

However, as a feminist, I am concerned about the narrative people are pushing with this case. Despite the evidence, Amber seems to be getting a far harder time. There's also lots of "See! Women are just as abusive as men!" rhetoric swimming around.

Men who admit to abuse aren't treated half as bad as Amber is being right now. It's like the people watching want her to be as abusive as possible.

Apologies, you did say that in your earlier post too!

Anyone defending Amber prepared to comment on her appropriation of someone else’s rape story? Or are you just brushing that under the carpet?

Yes, he has a type - much younger and waif-like women. Ugh

Literally anyone. Why did she appropriate someone else’s rape story as an accusation against her ex? How is that defensible?

I'm not defending Heard, so can't answer that. I don't think anyone here is defending her either.

She's absolutely vile. Defending her is an insult to all DV sufferers.

@RoseslnTheHospital people are defending her and very much cherry picking incidents to make her seem like a credible witness. This goes to the heart of the issue. Amber only has her testimony and that of a few friends to support her case.

the U.K. judge did not allow much of the testimony that challenged her credibility and that of her witnesses. It does very much feel like a double standard

I find it utterly abhorrent that people are still defending a woman who has admired to punching and belittling her partner and openly tainted him that no one would ever believe him. Someone who multiplied witnesses have said tried to bribe them to perjure themselves on several occasions and who thinks it it is fine to manufacture stories out of someone else’s trauma.

I find it unbelievable that anyone finds her testimony credible.

Sorry typos

admired should be admitted

tainted should be taunted

No one is defending Amber Heard per se. Recalibrating the discourse to not erase Depp's behaviour (i.e. history of abuse and predatory actions towards women) doesn't = thinking AH is perfect and innocent.

@JustAnotherPoster00 his arrests and the ages of his partners are a matter of public record. It took me five seconds to google it and come across a blog post that collects some examples:

www.kyrackramer.com/2020/07/01/johnny-depps-history-of-violence/amp/

I'm sure you can find other lists if you want to look.

Quite.

@Innocenta I said at the top that I think there are faults on both sides. But I do still hold that most here would still defend a woman as a whole over a man just because she is a woman. Unfortunately I’ve seen it time and time again on mumsnet. Her proven crimes against him are obviously nowhere near as bad because you know she is a woman.

And either way, how in the world is it fair that he has lost practically everything on the accusations alone before the court case even really started and yet she still has her jobs etc? There’s claims against her but I don’t see film companies sacking her!

This to me isn’t about Depp or Herd, I personally 100% think the fault lies with both of them, to me it’s about the principle of treating accusations of abuse and violence the same regardless of the gender of the alleged victim. Women can abuse men and men can abuse women. Women abusing men is rarer though much more common than people think because men are now in the situation women were in years ago when they get met with “ahh but what did you do to provoke this poor woman? It must be your fault!” And we know that attitude is so so wrong! We wouldn’t accept that if it was said to a woman, and rightly so, so why does it seem it’s accepted when it applies to men? So men don’t come forward.

But you only want to focus on his behaviour @Innocenta

She and a few friends are the only witnesses to his behaviour. If she isn’t credible at all then how are we suppose to support her affirmation that she is the victim here.

They both obviously have drug and dependence issues. They had physical fights. The question at stake is which one was the aggressor and therefore which one was the victim of violence. Real life is often not clear cut but it is very difficult to believe her when she has gone out of her way to manufacture dishonest testimony. That very fact puts everything else in question. I find I cannot support her at all on the basis of her treatment of a woman she should have been supporting.

People would be reasonable in taking a woman's claims of DV particularly seriously, given the high rate of domestic femicide.

DV against a woman by a man is not an identical crime to DV against a man by a woman. That doesn't mean the latter is okay, or unimportant. But they aren't the same.

@Legrandsophie If there was a balanced account of both people's behaviour, I wouldn't comment at all. I actually like him more (as an actor), and have no interest in her. I used to be a massive fan of him! I'm only commenting in a way that can be mistaken as 'on her side' because the discussion is usually so unbalanced.

Am I defending Amber or Johnny? No neither of them. I’m just disgusted by a system that still automatically paints women as weak victims and men as manipulative abusers in the first instance before trials even get underway.
Hopefully the truth will out on this one being a two way street, and hopefully this case will also highlight the fact that women CAN be abusers too and that men who are being abused should come forward and will be believed and not vilified.

Really there are 4 versions of this whole case: Amber’s side, Johnny’s side, what the media let us see, and the truth!

@Nosquit there are no "proven crimes" committed by Heard against Depp. Similarly, there are no "proven crimes" committed by Depp against Heard. The UK civil case was about defamation by The Sun newspaper, not a criminal trial of Depp or Heard.

No one is trying to suggest that Heard is an innocent victim, or that women in domestic abuse situations are always "weak victims". In fact, rather the opposite, that someone can be abusive, unpleasant, badly behaved and also a victim. That it isn't black and white, men=bad/women=good situation.

What is interesting is how allegations and untruths are repeated as fact in regard to Heard, whereas the outcome of the UK court case is dismissed as a judge stupidly accepting lies as truth. Despite the careful consideration of evidence in each incident, and the fact that an appeal was also denied.

@Innocenta

i think the discussion is unbalanced because almost everyone is going into this with their own axe to grind rather than looking at the available evidence.

Nowhere in that link does it say he enacted any abuse or violence towards a partner, getting into fights and trashing rooms, while not defensible behaviour but doesnt equate to being a domestic abuser

@RoseslnTheHospital

The is a lot of confusion about what the U.K. trial was and wasn’t and what evidence was included.

The U.K. case was a libel proceeding in which The Sun simply had to show that on balance of probability that Depp had indeed struck his wife, thus making him a ‘wife bearer’ as stated in their article. Much of the evidence that spoke to the credibility of testimonies provided by the witnesses called by The Sun was not included and deemed not admissible.

This meant that to win Depp would have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he in no way could be described as a ‘wife bearer’ and was therefore libelled by The Sun. The context of how the events occurred was therefore not relevant I.e- if Heard’s injuries were sustain while he was trying to fight her off as she attacked him then he is still legally accountable for those injuries.

The phrasing The Sun we’re defending was ‘wife beater’ and they won because the judge found the testimonies of Amber and her friends credible while not allowing the testimonies of those who challenged this credibility to be entered into evidence.

So not quite as cut and dried as you make out.

However, as a feminist, I am concerned about the narrative people are pushing with this case. Despite the evidence, Amber seems to be getting a far harder time. There's also lots of "See! Women are just as abusive as men!" rhetoric swimming around

Totally agree OP. I am not on any 'side' whatsoever but I do notice that there seems to be a deluge of comments like, 'See! Women are just as abusive as men.' Of course some women are abusers too. I guess that goes without saying. But the reality of the situation is that JD is getting far, far more support and AH is being pilloried. In the court of public opinion AH is indeed a victim, regardless of what really happened.

Read any online article, including serious newspapers like the Guardian and 95% of the comments are gushing about what a 'gentleman' JD is. It's simpering fandom and it really upsets me. It's based on people's teenage crushes on someone they thought was 'cool' many, many years ago. Again, I have no opinion on who did what. I simply cannot bear the assumption that a famous man is a poor victim and needs so much support.

It's based on people's teenage crushes on someone they thought was 'cool' many, many years ago.

Or its based on the evidence thats so far being presented

@JustAnotherPoster00 Actually it is abuse to break things aggressively in proximity to your partner. Smashing things is generally recognised to be abusive behaviour.

It's as "cut and dried" as it could be, in that the case was concluded in The Sun's favour and Depp was not given leave to appeal. All based on carefully considered reasoning and evidence. If you personally think that the judge was wrong not to consider specific testimony as evidence, then you should probably say what and why your opinion is more valid than the judges involved in the original case and the appeal dismissal.

Even if you are correct and the judges have made some terrible mistake, several of the specific incidences being considered involve Depp's own testimony or own text messages where it was clear that he had physically assaulted Heard.

The only winners here, as usual, are the lawyers getting paid to pursue these cases.

@Horological

She is not getting a far harder time. She hasn’t lost almost all her work. She’s been presented in the press as a brave victim and given awards for speaking up for domestic abuse victims. All while having openly admitted on tape to punching him and chasing him round the house when she got angry.

Have you listened to the tapes? This is not about her being the perfect victim or being held to a higher standard than Depp. This is about her not being held to the same standard as her ex.

What I’ve seen to far is:

If she hit him then he deserved it.
Her account is true and his is false
His drinking is a sign he is an abuser but hers is normal
Her credibility can’t be questioned but his can

What I find outrageous is that you would have to overlook her own admissions that she hit him, her own words as she told him no one would believe him and the pictures of him with scratches and bruises to do the mental gymnastic to make him her abuser.