Calling out the misogyny in drag is "hate" now

[Ravenclawsome]

Local museum has bought a costume featured on Drag Race.

It's then criticised those that point out that drag is misogynistic. 🙄

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/2385220/ru-pauls-drag-race-dundee-museum-hits-out-at-unacceptable-abuse-over-ellie-diamond-display/

I never thought of drag as being "gender non-conforming". It's cabaret.

At least it used to be. Would be nice if it stayed that way. I don't know why every damn thing needs to be dragged under the trans umbrella these days.

Drag is gay men who perform a cabaret act for adults. Keep it well out of trans and certainly keep it the fuck away from children. It's adult night club entertainment. If it's kept where it belongs then people are free to enjoy it or not enjoy it as they please.

I personally like a good drag act. I don't like the mainstreaming of drag. It feels like the TRAs are determined to drag (!) everything that's spikey, rebellious and queer into everyday mundanity. The same push is happening with sexual fetish.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Whether they are all like that is immaterial. Play stupid games like saying Drag is not misogynistic. If you watched any, you'd know that drag queens dress up in homage and tribute to women. It's complimentary. and win the appropriate prizes. In this case getting confronted with the acts mocking child abuse that you recently justified.

If someone can't take women having opinions about child abuse jokes, then best not to risk patronising women on a parenting website. So awkward when it turns out the mummies don't live under a rock and actually are acquainted with popular culture, isn't it?

Caveat: Most drag is not misogyny. Someone is so 'in touch with pop culture' that they went through a list of names, found some appalling exceptions and used this to write off the whole idea of people playing with gender identity (which shouldn't be a problem as GCs don't believe in gender anyway) and is going to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of justifying child abuse. Pretty low way to use that to justify your own dislike of cross dressing. If that's how you stoop to try and get people to stop disagreeing with you, then you don't have much of an argument. What's that GCs like to say about not trying to silence other women?

I became aware of the misogynistic nature of drag a couple of years ago when the Big Fat Quiz of the Year invited Drag Queens on to talk about the terminology used. One was fish or fishy for referring to Drag Queens who get mistaken for women, so convincing is their presentation.

So,

Fish/fishy - referring to the smell of women's genitals as smelling like fish.

Accepted terminology - obviously used often enough to be detailed on a mainstream comedy show

And the comedians all say there laughing and I thought, hang on, you're laughing at a term of abuse used against women.

How anyone can say that it's not misogynistic and isn't punching down at women, ridiculing stereotypes of what it is to be a women, is beyond me.

Drag is under the trans umbrella, except when it isn't.

Witness:

Aberystwyth University has been forced to ban drag socials because cisgender men were using them as “an opportunity to ridicule trans people”.

According toThe Tab,Aberystwyth Students’ Union made the decision in consultation with the university’s LGBT+ society AberPride.

The SU said the socials had become “about members of random groups dressing up as the opposite gender in a general way that has the intention of being as funny as possible.

Continues: www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/09/04/university-drag-social-ban-cis-men-aberystwyth-trans-people-pride-lgbt-society/

So, some people are allowed to find drag offensive. And others aren't.

Drag is NOT a homage to women, it parodies women and takes the piss.

Caveat:Mostdrag is not misogyny. Someone is so 'in touch with pop culture' that they went through a list of names, found some appalling exceptions and used this to write off the whole idea of people playing with gender identity (which shouldn't be a problem as GCs don't believe in gender anyway) and is going to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of justifying child abuse. Pretty low way to use that to justify your own dislike of cross dressing. If that's how you stoop to try and get people to stop disagreeing with you, then you don't have much of an argument. What's that GCs like to say about not trying to silence other women?

Oh you sillly.

I didn't go through a list, I supplied a source (which I know you haven't looked at because the names I quoted weren't all from there). I am aware of these acts and you weren't. So you made a blanket statement. Learn from it and move on.

P.S. there is nothing gender non-conforming about men making jokes about women. That is gender conforming.

Women nodding along and putting up with jokes at our expense is also gender conforming.

@SmokedDuck

TBH I think drag varies really significantly in quality and also how it's conceptualised. I don't think it necessarily is misogynistic but it can be.

I do sometimes find it odd that it's become so mainstream. Mainly it's relevant as a medium by and for gay men, and I'm not convinced it rises to the level of high art. Museums and libraries and such mostly seem mainly to have latched on to it as a way to show their progressive credentials.

But there should absolutely be room in a liberal democracy for people to disagree about things like drag, in an adult conversation, without being accused of bigotry. But then I think the same about sex and race and sexuality, and a lot of people seem to struggle with even mild differences of opinion in those areas.

Really good point about discussion without accusation. Not sure anyone has accused anyone else of being bigoted on this thread? Very socially conservative, yes, but that's not the same thing.

However, for stating that (IMO) drag is not inherently misogynistic I've had responses which call me patronising, assume I'm not a parent, assume my views on sex work, accuse me of legitimising the very worst crimes. This site seems unable to take disagreement without stooping to really personal and hurtful responses, and I can't see how trying to silence dissent from other women in that way is 'feminist'.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Caveat:Mostdrag is not misogyny. Someone is so 'in touch with pop culture' that they went through a list of names, found some appalling exceptions and used this to write off the whole idea of people playing with gender identity (which shouldn't be a problem as GCs don't believe in gender anyway) and is going to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of justifying child abuse. Pretty low way to use that to justify your own dislike of cross dressing. If that's how you stoop to try and get people to stop disagreeing with you, then you don't have much of an argument. What's that GCs like to say about not trying to silence other women?

Oh you sillly.

I didn't go through a list, I supplied a source (which I know you haven't looked at because the names I quoted weren't all from there). I am aware of these acts and you weren't. So you made a blanket statement. Learn from it and move on.

P.S. there is nothing gender non-conforming about men making jokes about women. That is gender conforming.

Women nodding along and putting up with jokes at our expense is also gender conforming.

Calling a woman "silly" is incredibly misogynistic. As is telling me to shut up and move on . This is showing me yet again that the GC movement is not about feminism or respecting other women. Its social conservatism. Thank you for making it so obvious.

I hate the fish thing- so male genitals don't smell then???
Cheeky gits
I always thought drag was cabaret, entertainment for adult audiences. It seems it has been appropriated by a group of people with an entirely different agenda.
Waiting for Miss O'Genee to appear from the wings. Or maybe has already; either way, at least it would be accurate

Calling a woman "silly" is incredibly misogynistic. As is telling me to shut up and move on . This is showing me yet again that the GC movement is not about feminism or respecting other women. Its social conservatism. Thank you for making it so obvious.

Massive eye roll

Have you popped onto AIBU and informed all the women there disagreeing with each other that they're displaying social conservatism which equals them all being cancelled and anything they say worthless?

Or is your point that women may only point out misogyny if they do so without ever doing it in a way that another woman may find rude or aggressive because that's misogynistic which renders the words magically invalid? Grown ups disagree and can cope with disagreement. Women are no longer required to write out the Chalet School lines about 'her voice was ever soft and low' for the crime of speaking in unladylike ways.

Feminism does not mean I am only allowed to tell men when they have been foolish. It does not mean I have to respect anything you say because you are female, any more that I repect anything that a man says because he is male.

It means I will march for you to be protected from workplace discrimination on the basis of sex, to be free from street harassment, to keep your job after maternity leave, to be believed on the stand in sexual assault cases, for juries to be taught that rape myths are myths and for you to have access to PPE equipment that fits.

I have no obligation to let you patronize me about whether I have ever watched drag or to let you tell me I don't like gender non-conformity.

Again, men making jokes about women, especially sexual assault, is not "non-conforming". If it is, Jimmy Carr is gender non-conforming, and so was Bernard Manning.

'She said: “Having something like this in The McManus would give the young, queer people in Dundee some hope.'

Really? For young lesbians and the large number of gay men who are not into this side of things?
For boys who are gay, what does this tell them?
Why is the main 'celebration' etc around homosexuality about men dressing up in hypersualised parodies of women, including horrible names and often the sort of behaviour of Alexis Colby in dynasty?

Nope.

I have always hated drag and also panto dames since a child. I never knew why when I was little it just made me uncomfortable. When older I realised it was because it was no more than laughing at women by exaggerating a very male view of what women are all about.

I get that it's been around for ages on the gay scene and understand why. On that scene ok sure.

To be pushed so much (why?) all over the place is a bit peculiar.

Not offensive?
Cheryl hole? Literally referring to her c**t?
I mean there are plenty but I find that vile.
The Jon Benet performers?

When I was young we had men dressing up as women all over. Les Dawson hoiking his bosom. Cupid Stunt flashing crotch with enormous plastic breasts.

Yeah brilliant.

Oh and fishy.

I've seen the argument it's about subverting gender and that seems to make sense until you note that BOOBS are often pretty key and they are a sex characteristic. As is any padding used.

So no. It's not about gender norms.

It's about women. And men lampooning them often in grossly misogynist ways.

So there you go :)

Male genitals, IMO, smell vaguely of goat. Male goat, specifically.

TRHR I don't know that I think socially conservative/progressive is the description I'd use for this difference of opinion, but be that as it may, I think that this is a subject that people will have different views on that don't particularly tend to correspond to how we think about political position. Often when there is a tendency to label people as transphobic or homophobic or sexist for taking a different viewpoint, you will see people react by pushing back in a similar way.

Having said that I can't get worked up about a costume in a museum.

It looks like fetishwear but I mean you get all sorts in museums!

Is fetishwear appropriate for family viewing on the telly? That's another question entirely.

I'd far rather go to see eg Leigh bowery's outfits any day. Way more interesting

www.google.com/search?q=leigh+bowery

NiceGerbil

^Really? For young lesbians and the large number of gay men who are not into this side of things?
For boys who are gay, what does this tell them?
Why is the main 'celebration' etc around homosexuality about men dressing up in hypersualised parodies of women, including horrible names and often the sort of behaviour of Alexis Colby in dynasty?^

Were you on the last drag thread on MN where one MNer said a drag queen at a gay and lesbian bar had mocked her for not wearing enough make-up and looking like a butch lesbian? It was her birthday. Butch lesbians being mocked by a drag queen for being gender non-conforming. Vile.

I can't get over that. I just can't.

'This is showing me yet again that the GC movement is not about feminism or respecting other women. Its social conservatism. Thank you for making it so obvious.'

You think drag etc hasn't been an issue for lots of feminists for years?

That it's only been criticised recently and it's to do with ... I think you are saying those who want to enforce sex/ gender norms on others?

That implies that everyone on the thread is somehow managing to make up arguments that are the opposite of what they think?

That's quite a stretch IMO.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes I remember that poster and her sadness of feeling not welcome there, being laughed at by the audience.

Didn't someone else on that thread talk about being slapped by a drag queen as part of the act and how shockingly painful it was?

[quote Waitwhat23]@PurgatoryOfPotholes I remember that poster and her sadness of feeling not welcome there, being laughed at by the audience.

Didn't someone else on that thread talk about being slapped by a drag queen as part of the act and how shockingly painful it was?[/quote]
I think they did!

Can't believe I forgot that.

The idea here then is that when I was a little girl Cupid stunt made me uncomfortable and I couldn't understand why my dad found it so funny

Was because I'm a social conservative and also thought it because of trans even though in the 80s that meant transexual and we were decades away from the current conversation? And I was little?

Is my social conservatism the reason i thought that eg Steve strange, Marilyn, the rocky horror show esp Tim curry were fab? What about the likes of sigue sigue sputnik

I'm not sure how this makes sense.

Do socially conservative people say they'd be interested in going to an exhibition about Leigh bowery's life etc?

Women tend not to be welcome in spaces that are 'for men'

I mean no surprise surely.

But there should absolutely be room in a liberal democracy for people to disagree about things like drag, in an adult conversation, without being accused of bigotry. But then I think the same about sex and race

Please tell me @SmokedDuck what particular aspect of race you want to debate?

'
However, for stating that (IMO) drag is not inherently misogynistic I've had responses which call me patronising, assume I'm not a parent, assume my views on sex work, accuse me of legitimising the very worst crimes. This site seems unable to take disagreement without stooping to really personal and hurtful responses, and I can't see how trying to silence dissent from other women in that way is 'feminist'.'

Not on this thread though? Some of that is awful. I imagine you reported and hope the posts were deleted.

TRHR drag queens dress up in homage and tribute to women. It's complimentary

Really? Don't think so. You want to pay homage to someone/a group of people and you pick the most hideous stereotypes of them, exaggerate those to the extreme, parody them, use language and names that are revolting, offensive and demeaning to them, tell jokes that they are the butt of, act in way that ridicules them and you think that's being complimentary? You think the person/group of people on the receiving end of that should find it a tribute?

Drag is misogynist to it's very core, always was and always will be.

Men have always dressed as women (as separate to wearing women’s clothes) as a joke, the joke is that it’s humiliating for a man to pretend to be a woman, it’s “funny” because a man would never wear such uncomfortable and impractical clothes and doesn’t he just look the opposite of sexy, which is what women are supposed to be.

@TheRebelle

Men have always dressed as women (as separate to wearing women’s clothes) as a joke, the joke is that it’s humiliating for a man to pretend to be a woman, it’s “funny” because a man would never wear such uncomfortable and impractical clothes and doesn’t he just look the opposite of sexy, which is what women are supposed to be.

Apart from (at least on something like DR) the whole point is to look sexy and be able to wear beautiful clothes they have a genuine love for and even sew themselves. Seems to be different shows people are watching but the one Ellie was on (whole point of this thread) does not aim at taking shots at horrible stereotypes of women.