Calling out the misogyny in drag is "hate" now

[Ravenclawsome]

Local museum has bought a costume featured on Drag Race.

It's then criticised those that point out that drag is misogynistic. 🙄

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/2385220/ru-pauls-drag-race-dundee-museum-hits-out-at-unacceptable-abuse-over-ellie-diamond-display/

[Anonapapple]

Going back to some points about misogyny, here is a very random piece of anecdata which I had forgotten all about until I read this.

Year ago, I used to go to some clubs in Canal Street, Manchester with a friend. We went to one club one night and there was a drag queen on stage singing and I was dancing along. I dropped my handbag and the contents rolled on the floor, including a tampon. The drag queen picked it up and showed it to everyone and made some very sneering comments about it (into a microphone).

As it happens, I am not embarrassed by any items relating to my period but it very much felt like a line had been crossed. I never thought too deeply on anything back then, but remember having a horrible feeling that I couldn't put my finger on. The feeling was 'I am a girl, and this drag queen is using an aspect of that to try to humiliate me'. I got such a sense of hateful jealousy (or something like that). Looking back now, it was pure misogyny.

Anecdote over, as you were.

[TheSlayer]

Yes, in reflection I agree. Particularly about the blaming of her 'career'. I just think Robin Williams made it more sympathetic than it was portrayed in the book.
The book holds no bars and really portrays him as lazy and reckless. The film dumbed it down but it's still there.
I guess it just shows you can get away with more if you put the main character in drag. Attempted murder(the pepper scene), stalking and neglect off the top of my head.

[RedToothBrush]

@TheSlayer

And in the film, being Mrs Doubt fire brings out the best in him, makes him a better father etc.
It's interesting because in the book he doesn't change and the kids end up covering his lazy ass with housekeeping.

Both very different yet interesting messages.

Mrs Doubtfire.

A story where a father doesn't take his responsibilities seriously and dumps it all on the mother until she breaks and decides to divorce. He doesn't like the court decision so acts like a creepy fucker by lying to get into his ex-wife's house. In any other situation, you'd be saying not that this was 'unorthodox' but effectively bordering on stalking and contempt of court.

But instead this is the hero of the film and the ex-wife is cast as the uptight, killjoy who should have really given him another chance cos he's a good guy really.

Its one of those films that i think has aged really badly and when you watch it back now, from a feminist perspective you start to go WTAF.

[NiceGerbil]

@RedToothBrush

Less just say it.

Drag is the modern acceptable face of sexism and have done with it.

As long as you are dressed as a woman you can say just about anything offensive you like about women and say its 'just being entertaining' in a way you couldnt if in trousers (or shorts on a hot day like today).

As i say the cloak of the invisible testicles.

It's not new though.

It's come into the mainstream now again so is getting more attention.

It was mainstream in the late 70s early 80s as well.

And of course it's been on the gay scene for yonks.

It's always been misogynist (so much the majority of the time that the exceptions prob prove the rule).

[TheSlayer]

And in the film, being Mrs Doubt fire brings out the best in him, makes him a better father etc.
It's interesting because in the book he doesn't change and the kids end up covering his lazy ass with housekeeping.

Both very different yet interesting messages.

[TheSlayer]

I think the least offensive thing I can think of is Mrs Doubt fire. But if you read the book he's an awful lazy misogynist. Robin Williams just was very warm in it.

[JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon]

I'm struggling to think of any example of men dressing as women that isn't misogynistic in some way.


It is always either punching down, mocking women and stereotypes of women or harking back to a time when women were so oppressed that they could not perform in a theatre.


I'm talking about dressing as a woman, not a man wearing gender non-conforming clothes (Evan Dando, David Bowie etc).


Can we think of a flattering fond portrayal of a woman by a man? Excluding the historically accurate performance of Shakespeare, because that of course is rooted in the oppression of women (though that isn't to say there isn't merit in those performances).

[Blibbyblobby]

But for me that 'story' is lined up ready for those who challenge her. I'm sure she's comfortable with herself, but she's aware she challenges the 'norm'.

It could just be that she comes from a culture and point in time where dressing up in spangles and sequins and spending “a lot of money to look this cheap” was part of “femininity”.

Now popular ideas of what’s ok, or at least respectable, for women in our culture don’t include Dolly’s style. It’s moved away, leaving behind Dolly and the drag queens.

So here’s another “why it’s not the same” observation. Dolly, an actual woman with heavy makeup and big breasts, had to deal with people thinking she was a slut and not very bright. Would a man in the same outfit as a drag act get anyone looking at him and thinking he was slutty or a bimbo? Nope, because it would always be read as a character he was adopting. With a woman it’s read as actually her. So that’s another element in why drag is not just unproblematic fun. Same clothes, different context.

[TheSlayer]

I love Dolly's voice and used to like her on Graham Norton. I can't say I know much about her now. I could take or leave the image to be honest because I think her voice transcends that anyway.
But for me that 'story' is lined up ready for those who challenge her. I'm sure she's comfortable with herself, but she's aware she challenges the 'norm'.

That story actually reminds me a bit of my 'why I'm vegetarian' speech from years ago. A quick explanation to discourage challenges. Good for deflection.
Of course, only Dolly really knows.

[TheSlayer]

And actually, the more I think about it, the more I realise that's another element of drag that upsets me.
My friend does the pageant scene and there's a drag element. She posts lots on social media.
It's all fabulous this and stunning that. But the drag outfits aren't nearly as policed as the regular pageant. The drag one gets away with far more choice, sexiness and outrageousness.
It's a fine art on the other hand for the primary pageant. They have to look sexy, innocent, beautiful, humble etc.
In my view drag presents 'womaning' as fun and self expression. But in real life women can never win. We have to look sexy, professional, young, sophisticated... It's neverending and if you achieve one you fall down on the others.
When I see the likes of Philip Bunce and Caitlin Jenner being taken seriously for their ideas even though they are dressed in bows and sequins I think it just highlights the unfair double standard.

[Aspiringmatriarch]

I love Dolly. ♥️

[Aspiringmatriarch]

In a way, I'm not sure she's apologising as such though - she seems comfortable standing out, and talking about herself.

A few pictures for anyone still wondering what on earth I could possibly have meant.

[TheSlayer]

I mean the Dolly example. She is an example of apologising/ preempting.

[TheSlayer]

In neon's defence, it's annoying when people don't answer and the thread moves on.
And I think actually, more than anything, is that it illustrates that when women don't fit this mythical mould of femaleness, they are socialised to apologise for it.
I know men have different issues when they don't fit the mythical mould of maleness, but I don't think they apologize for it as much. And women are constantly called out for not fitting. Too thin, too fat, too clumsy, too vulgar. We're policed in a way that men just aren't. Right down to our facial expressions (smile love).

[Aspiringmatriarch]

@NeonDreams no you haven't been particularly polite IMO, which stood out to me on the thread as it's generally been interesting and respectful. Quoting me repeatedly in separate posts to disagree with each element of what I said, after the thread has moved on significantly anyway, is not my idea of constructive. Particularly as you came back with exactly the same objection after I clarified what I meant about Dolly Parton and even quoted her directly. It can't be that difficult to understand, surely?

[Flyingantday]

Enjoying the intelligent and respectful debate on this thread.

Fwiw, I have noticed a gradual move towards recognising the offence/micro aggression as perceived by the offended party rather than someone else coming along and telling someone what is and isn’t racist/antisemitic/homophobic etc. Obviously there is masses of progress still to make on this and there is a long way to go towards adequate representation of minority groups when these things are discussed and genuine listening and engagement from those who benefit from the status quo.

Unfortunately it seems that no one even attempts to allow women to define misogyny and whether something is offensive or hateful (see misogynistic abuse being able to stand on Twitter or the omission of misogyny from hate crime legislation). Women’s complaints are ignored, apparently what we find offensive is actually flattery (a trope rolled out when catcalling and sexual harassment is called out). Even our own words are taken from us or prefixed because factual language is apparently offensive to some. But that’s a whole other derail.

I personally wouldn’t want to impinge on someone’s freedom to make a living performing drag in its original setting, or people paying to see it as adult entertainment. But I don’t think it has anything positive or edifying for my daughters to see on family tv shows or down the local library or museum. I don’t think it advances the cause of LGBT education and acceptance either.

[NiceGerbil]

@SourAppleChew

Fair enough, but oddly it's also mainly women that seem to love it. Most blokes aren't really into it.

What drag?

[NiceGerbil]

Neon and of course that is AOK.

As a white woman I think the argument against drag etc can stand alone.

And it's not my area you know? Black women have their views on it. Not for me to say well you're wrong and you're right because it's a handy comparison.

Dunno if that makes sense. I'm talking about my own posts not what anyone else should say.

I do think it tends to totally derail threads though which imo is often why it's brought up by those with certain views.

[SourAppleChew]

Fair enough, but oddly it's also mainly women that seem to love it. Most blokes aren't really into it.

[NeonDreams]

@SourAppleChew

I am uncomfortable with the blackface comparison tbh

Me too. There have been multiple threads in the past where POC have said they dislike it. Not least because the people comparing it to blackface are members of the same group who oppressed them and possibly had ancestors who wore blackface.

I am a black woman. I find it to be an exact comparison, because it is exactly what it is. Men using Womanface. And the prejudice, the bilious hatred, is the same. Black or woman. The entrenched misogyny of women in drag acts is very clear. As a black woman, I feel I can say that.

[NeonDreams]

@Aspiringmatriarch I have been nothing but polite, and have only sought clarification. You however have been snarky and I felt you were not posting in good faith. Your refusal to engage or clarify anything you said speaks volumes about your intent. Not about mine.

[NiceGerbil]

If you're not fussed about drag but you do want to talk about certain comparisons that come up then a different thread is the best way to go IMO

[SourAppleChew]

Yes, probably another discussion. But I think an argument can be made against drag without (pardon the pun) dragging POC into it.

But I'm probs not the best person to discuss it with because I just can't get annoyed about drag. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that I'm a bit meh about it all.

[NiceGerbil]

Like I say though it's a diversion from the topic.

I have time for both views on that.

If it needs rehashing then another thread maybe.

[SourAppleChew]

The discussion I'm referencing was where black mumsnetters were saying they found it crass for white people to co-opt the struggles they caused black people and use them to moan about how oppressed they were.

I suppose you could liken it to men complaining to women about the patriarchy.