Calling out the misogyny in drag is "hate" now

[Ravenclawsome]

Local museum has bought a costume featured on Drag Race.

It's then criticised those that point out that drag is misogynistic. 🙄

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/2385220/ru-pauls-drag-race-dundee-museum-hits-out-at-unacceptable-abuse-over-ellie-diamond-display/

If it's fine for men to be gender non-conforming, it should be fine for them to dress up and be as flamboyantly feminine as they wish, surely?

Why the need for the fake boobs if they are just men dressing flamboyantly and being gender non-conforming? Did Boy George or David Bowie find it necessary to attach fake boobs to their chests?
Drag Queens are dressing as women utilising the most demeaning and offensive stereotypes and exaggerating them to extremes to ridicule women. That is misogynist and offensive.

As NiceGerbil says look at the drag depictions in mainstream television not a single one of them was a celebration of women, women depicted as battle-axes, frumps, or extreme sexual parodies.

It's no more than the superior, in their eyes, sex class punching down on the perceived, in their eyes, inferior sex class.

I don't think all men dressing up as women is drag. That muddies the waters considerably. Male performers often dress up as women in order to depict women characters. As female performers do for males. In comedy it can be done for comic effect but it isn't drag.

You brought race up smokedduck iirc so I don't think it's fair for someone who responds to been seen as derailing!

I'm still really interested to hear examples of race topics that could result in mild disagreement between reasonable people though.

You may not think of it like that but

In England that's the usual meaning

Cambridge dictionary

'the activity of dressing in clothes of the opposite sex, especially of a man dressing in women's clothes, often for humorous entertainment:'

If you have met one drag queen..... you have met one drag queen. Like comedians, it is a huge umbrella, some are misogynistic and horrible, others not. Cant make sweeping generalizations I think.

OK, I'd be interested in knowing of any Drag Queens who do none of the following -

• wear fake breasts
• use the stereotypical view of women being bitchy as part of their act
• use any mention of female anatomy as part of their act

As a pp has said, Boy George and David Bowie presented themselves as gender non confirming - they just dressed as they wanted without having to adopt a persona negatively stereotyping women.

You want me to explain why stags are not doing it to look beautiful?

I think you have missed my wider point that drag is a man dressed as a woman. Not just the drag that is specific to the gay scene.

Apologies, I did misunderstand then. Although I would say that's more cross-dressing than drag. Either way I don't think you can argue that it's fine to be gender non-conforming and then say that an overtly feminine presentation is misogynistic. If it's misogynistic, then it's not fine to be gender non-conforming in that respect. Personally I can't imagine being offended by a man wearing dresses, lipstick or anything else they choose.

Well no I don't see how you can disagree with race or aspects of it. Race isn't a choice. Drag is. You brought race up @smokedduck so please can you give me an example of what you disagree with in terms of race?

I think it's pretty clear the thread is about drag, a form of burlesque, not drag, all men dressing up as women even in the 16th century.

I am finding it hard to believe anyone has troble thinking about how people might disagree about race issues and have an adult conversation about it, or that the point that people should be able to talk about difficult issues was what was meant to be understood. Though I suppose more and more issues now seem to be on the list of heresies.

And I am still fairly sure that the inquiries are an attempt to derail the thread or perhaps get screenshots.

But how about this - and I intend this to be an example rather than a discussion for the thread which would be a significant derail: Where do you stand on the disagreement between Ta-Nehisi Coates and Adolph Reed Jr on the nature of race and anti-racism activism? I'll point out that this isn't necessarily a mild disagreement, I would say it's rather heated actually, and yet it would be completely inappropriate to respond to either position by calling the person a racist. (Though I have certainly seen people do so.)

Personally I can't imagine being offended by a man wearing dresses, lipstick or anything else they choose.

I'm not offended by men wearing dresses or lipstick, I am offended when they turn the wearing of those items of clothing and make up into a gross parody of women to do nothing more that ridicule women which is what drag does.

If we all have different understandings of to the words then we're all at cross purposes for much of this thread!

Cross dresser to me is usually a straight man who does it for sexual reasons.

You brought it up.

'I am finding it hard to believe anyone has troble thinking about how people might disagree about race issues and have an adult conversation about it, or that the point that people should be able to talk about difficult issues was what was meant to be understood. Though I suppose more and more issues now seem to be on the list of heresies.'

Mild disagreement you said. On race.

Like what?

Repeating that it's a derail doesn't make sense as you brought it up.

No I can't think of a topic about race that reasonable people could have a mild disagreement about.

Whatever you were thinking of, and as you say you can't believe anyone can't think of any. Tell us an example. I don't understand why you don't just say.

Screenshots?

Where did that come from?! Is that s thing?! Screenshots for who and why? To prove what?

Oh sorry!

'I'll point out that this isn't necessarily a mild disagreement, I would say it's rather heated actually,'

You promised a mild disagreement though.

Just jumping back to the middle of thread here and to comments from @Eyesofdisarray & @Waitwhat23, but isn't the term fish/fishy referring to 'catfish' as in the act of convincing people you're someone you're not, rather than a reference to the smell of a vagina??

Anyway, as you were all.

Aspiringmatriarch

Why are breasts so often involved? Bum and hip padding is used as well by some I think?

Why the contouring to - I read about it once- 'soften' the features (sorry if that's not the right way to put it!).

They are all about women's physical characteristics, nothing to do with gendered attire etc.

@DuzzyFuck

Just jumping back to the middle of thread here and to comments from *@Eyesofdisarray & @Waitwhat23*, but isn't the term fish/fishy referring to 'catfish' as in the act of convincing people you're someone you're not, rather than a reference to the smell of a vagina??

Anyway, as you were all.

No it's about women's genitals smelling of fish.

I have seen various non offensive alternative explanations suggested. I imagine they exist when the actual meaning is raised, because it's so grossly b offensive.

Apart from to one poster earlier who said iirc that they think men's genitals tend to smell of goat.

@NiceGerbil Fair enough if you say so. Would never have been the first place my brain went 🤷🏻‍♀️

But so what? Why is that offensive? One person's 'gross parody' is another's dressing in costume/ experimenting/ self-expression / art form or whatever. It's not an insult to me as a woman, if you choose to view it that way then that's your prerogative, but it doesn't make it objectively true. By that logic, Dolly Parton is a raging misogynist I guess - campy, exaggerated, theatrical femininity with I'm guessing quite a bit of surgical help.

Nor mine fuzzy, sorry to give that info!

The reason our brains wouldn't have gone there is because probably the term wasn't one thought up by women.

@NiceGerbil

Aspiringmatriarch

Why are breasts so often involved? Bum and hip padding is used as well by some I think?

Why the contouring to - I read about it once- 'soften' the features (sorry if that's not the right way to put it!).

They are all about women's physical characteristics, nothing to do with gendered attire etc.

Lots of women don't have hourglass boobs, hips and bum, or 'soft' facial features- by calling these 'women's characteristics ' it risks sounding like this is the 'normal' female body shape. We're not all cookie cutter replicas , and more widely GC emphasis on what body parts 'real' women have is harmful to all women (loads of differences between cis women themselves) and ablist.

Hourglass shaping is a fashion that cis women have dressed to emphasise since the 50s. Most of us don't naturally look like that! Why can't drag queens express themselves with this sort of fashion? As @Aspiringmatriarch said above I think, why be supportive of people dressing how they want, but just not very feminine fashions?

The fishy thing is gross and unacceptable, that I do agree with. So ridiculous too, I've certainly never smelled remotely fishy and I'd be quite worried if I did.

Dolly Parton is female so has breasts and hips and curves because of that.

I think that drawing an equivalent between a man with padding, big plastic breasts, and dolly parton is really rubbish tbh.

You see the trappings and say I can't tell the difference. The same.

They're not though are they. Dolly Parton is female. Nothing like a man in drag.

Aspiring it's called BV.

However in general, loads of men have enjoyed referring to us by parts of their body, and often offensively.

Eg that bloke who called women 'gash' (just popped into my brain)

@DuzzyFuck as I mentioned in my pp, the first time I came across the term was on Big Fat Quiz of the Year. It was made very clear that it was referring to female genitalia and was why I was so shocked with the comedians, presenter and audience all laughing along with such a derisive, offensive reference.