Calling out the misogyny in drag is "hate" now

[Ravenclawsome]

Local museum has bought a costume featured on Drag Race.

It's then criticised those that point out that drag is misogynistic. 🙄

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/2385220/ru-pauls-drag-race-dundee-museum-hits-out-at-unacceptable-abuse-over-ellie-diamond-display/

The joke is on women and about women, how anyone can put forward the argument that I should find having the sex class I am member of ripped the piss out of in the most demeaning and misogynistic manner a tribute, homage and complimentary I have no fucking idea.

In the USA there are different cultural and historical things that affect views somehow.

In England at least

Women were banned from acting so men played female roles
'dressing up as women' for many reasons has been and is something English men are known for doing at the drop of a hat. Stag nights, fancy dress, just for a laugh, all over the telly back in the day, panto... Sure there is more.

In plenty of towns it's totally standard to see a group of drunk men staggering about in heels wigs makeup.

I once met a load of paras in s pub. They were dressed in tiny skintight lycra dresses just because. They were all strapping and the dresses left little to the imagination! They were very nice and my boyfriend got the hump about me chatting with them . One thing it brought home is just how revealing the dresses were. Seeing them on men really makes you realise, when you don't notice on women because they are dressed like that on nights out pretty often.

I don't watch drag show but I caught it channel hopping once. Can't remember what they were doing but the in your face misogyny was jaw dropping.

I think it was something to do with... The name of the thing alluded to women's genitals iirc.

In the 90s I lived above a drag club in Bristol. Every single time I saw the drag queens as I went in and out of my flat, they yelled "fish on the pavement" and tried to talk my boyfriend into clubbing with them, telling him how much better he could do for himself. Not done in "fun". They were vile, misogynistic and destroyed my confidence. I have a deep mistrust of them to this day...

@Comedycook

But there should absolutely be room in a liberal democracy for people to disagree about things like drag, in an adult conversation, without being accused of bigotry. But then I think the same about sex and race

Please tell me @SmokedDuck what particular aspect of race you want to debate?

If you are unable to think of things people could reasonably disagree about with regards to race, that might be a good indication of the nature of the underlying problem.

Drag is not only very misogynistic, it's also really tedious. I don't need permission to dislike or criticise it, like I'm allowed to hate any other lite entertainment.

Tbh I don't see how you can make a sweeping comment like 'women are the butt of the joke'. How can you say so confidently what the intention is? Some men just love dressing up and feeling beautiful. And it's not even like all drag is men dressing up as women. Why is there never any nuance in these conversations? A PP mentioned having bad experiences with drag artists which has now caused her to mistrust (presumably all of) them. I'm sure it was horrible, but what if it had been a group of people of a particular ethnicity who were abusive, for example - would you think it was acceptable to say you now have a deep mistrust of them? How is this not just out-and-out prejudice?

It’s demeaning to women and is parody.
None of it is a homage, it’s just nasty and I have no idea how it’s supposed to empower gay people or non conformity

Apart from (at least on something like DR) the whole point is to look sexy and be able to wear beautiful clothes they have a genuine love for and even sew themselves. Seems to be different shows people are watching but the one Ellie was on (whole point of this thread) does not aim at taking shots at horrible stereotypes of women.

The joke is that the “costume” is sexy but because it’s a man in it it’s not, it’s the juxtaposition of the male body in the feminine outfit that is the joke. Hetero men don’t find it sexy, hetero women don’t find it sexy, gay men don’t find it sexy and lesbians don’t find it sexy, in fact the only person that probably does find it sexy is the one in the costume.

Distrusting people based on their ethnicity which they cannot choose, and which is a protected characteristic for that very reason, is completely different from becoming distrustful of people in a particular occupation or who have a particular hobby.

The latter two are choices, and it is perfectly reasonable to notice if an occupation or hobby has a misogynistic culture. Do you judge people for avoiding football fans of a club known for violent hooliganism? Or women for being cautious going past building sites?

'But there should absolutely be room in a liberal democracy for people to disagree about things like drag, in an adult conversation, without being accused of bigotry. But then I think the same about sex and race and sexuality, and a lot of people seem to struggle with even mild differences of opinion in those areas.'

'If you are unable to think of things people could reasonably disagree about with regards to race, that might be a good indication of the nature of the underlying problem.'

Well people in general sure. Eg the govt report into institutional racism recently there were diverging opinions on all over the place.

This is about talking to posters on here though I'm sure you meant.

I also assume you would not present a racist argument.

That means that you would expect posters on here to be racist.

I think the PP also was wondering what topics could mean a mild difference of opinion on race. I admit I can't think offhand on that topic which leads to mild disagreement either. It's usually a topic with strong views iyswim.

If you are unable to think of things people could reasonably disagree about with regards to race

@SmokedDuck. What particular aspects of race do you 'disagree' with? Educate me

Ok, so would it be ok to say 'all rap is misogynistic' because of the lyrics and views held by some rappers? Also sexuality is a protected characteristic, so I think it's a bit unfair to take pot shots at an entire art form which is historically part of gay culture, based on the behaviour of some of its practitioners.

Let's go back to those names I mentioned earlier. These are people who make a living as performers.

One of the biggest indicators that any form of prejudice, e.g. misogyny, lesbophobia, is a current problem is how much pushback there is against perpetrators. Not only is the pushback limited (with some of these acts being celebrated and further publicised as part of a Pride website), but they're evidently getting paid to perform. One of the artists I mentioned is someone whose Linkedin, in that name^, I've seen. Like any band with an offensive name who couldn't get gigs, they would all have changed their names if people weren't making bookings or they were being asked to leave clubs.

So this supports the idea that this is a cultural problem, doesn't it?

@Aspiringmatriarch

Ok, so would it be ok to say 'all rap is misogynistic' because of the lyrics and views held by some rappers? Also sexuality is a protected characteristic, so I think it's a bit unfair to take pot shots at an entire art form which is historically part of gay culture, based on the behaviour of some of its practitioners.

Theoretically you can rap about any topic...hence its not fundamentally misogynistic.

@Aspiringmatriarch

Tbh I don't see how you can make a sweeping comment like 'women are the butt of the joke'. How can you say so confidently what the intention is? Some men just love dressing up and feeling beautiful. And it's not even like all drag is men dressing up as women. Why is there never any nuance in these conversations? A PP mentioned having bad experiences with drag artists which has now caused her to mistrust (presumably all of) them. I'm sure it was horrible, but what if it had been a group of people of a particular ethnicity who were abusive, for example - would you think it was acceptable to say you now have a deep mistrust of them? How is this not just out-and-out prejudice?

Finding drag insulting to women is comparable to racism/ xenophobia?!

NADQALT...?!

Drag queens are beautiful? By what definition of beautiful? And you say men in general. Yes they do love dressing up as women but trust me feeling beautiful is not why they are doing it

It's PREJUDICED to dislike a form of entertainment because in the past you've not liked it?

That's all a bit extreme surely?

Theoretically you can rap about any topic...hence its not fundamentally misogynistic.
But you've failed to prove drag is fundamentally misogynistic either. Some examples, sure. But all of drag? I don't see why. If it's fine for men to be gender non-conforming, it should be fine for them to dress up and be as flamboyantly feminine as they wish, surely?

@Aspiringmatriarch

Ok, so would it be ok to say 'all rap is misogynistic' because of the lyrics and views held by some rappers? Also sexuality is a protected characteristic, so I think it's a bit unfair to take pot shots at an entire art form which is historically part of gay culture, based on the behaviour of some of its practitioners.

Historically part of gay culture

AND

in England part of our culture which seems to be quite unusual around the world in that loads of men who are bogstandard straight blokes will happily don a frock heels and makeup for all sorts of reasons.
That mainstream family entertainment has included men in drag for decades.
In fact in the first st Trinian's film wasn't Alistair Simms (sp) in drag as the headmistress. Monty python did it all the time as well.

It's really not a thing confined to gay men although sure the gay drag scene has a particular type of look etc.

Drag queens are beautiful? By what definition of beautiful? And you say men in general. Yes they do love dressing up as women but trust me feeling beautiful is not why they are doing it grin

See, this is just blatant. Why are they doing it then?
And it's not about personal preference, people are arguing that all drag is inherently misogynistic.

@Aspiringmatriarch

Theoretically you can rap about any topic...hence its not fundamentally misogynistic. But you've failed to prove drag is fundamentally misogynistic either. Some examples, sure. But all of drag? I don't see why. If it's fine for men to be gender non-conforming, it should be fine for them to dress up and be as flamboyantly feminine as they wish, surely?

Saying rap is inherently misogynistic is like saying all fancy dress is inherently misogynistic...

First panto dame England 1806

St Trinian's 1954. V famous and shown a lot on telly when I was young.

Gender non-conforming is men wearing a dress just because they like them. See Kurt Cobain.

It is not men putting on fake breasts to make jokes about women. That's mocking women, based on a protected characteristic. What next? Defending those who dress up as people with visible disabilities?

And I think it's really homophobic of you to conflate the gay community with drag, as if it's an innate part of male same-sex attraction. There are plenty of gay men who don't like drag.

@Aspiringmatriarch

Drag queens are beautiful? By what definition of beautiful? And you say men in general. Yes they do love dressing up as women but trust me feeling beautiful is not why they are doing it grin

See, this is just blatant. Why are they doing it then?
And it's not about personal preference, people are arguing that all drag is inherently misogynistic.

You want me to explain why stags are not doing it to look beautiful?

I think you have missed my wider point that drag is a man dressed as a woman. Not just the drag that is specific to the gay scene.

And why can't men be beautiful 'dressed as men'?

Which of course many are.

You associate the word beauty with the particular excessive sexualised look that is most common in drag... Why?

@Comedycook

If you are unable to think of things people could reasonably disagree about with regards to race

@SmokedDuck. What particular aspects of race do you 'disagree' with? Educate me

This is really a tangent from the topic, and do you believe it's a useful one that will elucidate the questions about drag?

Or are you trying misdirect the thread?

Do you actually believe that there are no disagreements, either mild or serious, that reasonable people have about race? That seems quite incredible although one never knows these days.