Calling out the misogyny in drag is "hate" now

[Ravenclawsome]

Local museum has bought a costume featured on Drag Race.

It's then criticised those that point out that drag is misogynistic. 🙄

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/2385220/ru-pauls-drag-race-dundee-museum-hits-out-at-unacceptable-abuse-over-ellie-diamond-display/

@NiceGerbil

I've enjoyed discussing with you aspiring!

It's nice to share views etc in a way that doesn't get shouty even though we clearly disagree!

Thank you . Me too!

Of course, but people dress up in costumes (i.e. as someone or something else) all the time for plays, at Halloween, etc. It can be done offensively but not always. And Drag Queens are usually playing a character aren't they?

Yes, the character is “woman” and it involves sexist stereotypes which are funny because it’s a man acting them out and we all know how it’s beneath a man to do things that are women’s work.

Following

Saying that adults should be able to talk about difficult topics like gender and race is not "bringing race into it."

Earlier a poster compared burlesque and drag, but they are different. Burlesque is sensual and appreciates natural beauty, drag is crass and fake.

(loads of differences between cis women themselves)

What about the many women who aren't "cis"? Please don't impose unwanted labels on women here who reject your ideology.

Since when was appropriating womanhood under the 'LGBT' umbrella?

Imagine being a gay person, persecuted and denied very basic rights until recently (in this country at least, in 71 counties it's still illegal), for some bloke whose job it is to dress like some parody of a woman to jump in your circle and say "Wow I'm just like you".

It's so fucking utterly offensive I can't believe that it even happens

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop

Since when was appropriating womanhood under the 'LGBT' umbrella?

Imagine being a gay person, persecuted and denied very basic rights until recently (in this country at least, in 71 counties it's still illegal), for some bloke whose job it is to dress like some parody of a woman to jump in your circle and say "Wow I'm just like you".

It's so fucking utterly offensive I can't believe that it even happens

You know though, I think 20 years ago it would have seemed obvious to us that drag was a gay male thing, not about identity, but a type of entertainment that centred around masculine and feminine cultural expressions and how they relate to sexuality.

But drag performers were largely, by which I mean almost entirely, gay men, with normal names and lives outside of performance that did not involve wearing giant wigs and odd make-up and so on. They sure didn't attempt to go to women's changing rooms at the office or get in the women's wards in the hospital on the bass of their performance personality.

The few transwomen around were not in the main drag performers.

@SmokedDuck

Saying that adults should be able to talk about difficult topics like gender and race is not "bringing race into it."

You brought race into the thread as a topic that reasonable people could have mild disagreements over.

When someone said, like what.

You accused them of trying to derail the thread.

You gave an example of a conversation that you said was not a mild disagreement. Additionally you said it was not about race but about anti racist activism. Massively different.

I can't think of s topic about race that means mild disagreement. It's fair to ask for an example.

This thread is about drag so complaining it's being derailed when you brought it up out of nowhere and said that if other posters can't think of a topic on race that could result in mild disagreement. Then it's fair to ask what topic/s you are thinking of.

You've said other posters are part of the problem if they can't think of any. Which is essentially saying they're racist.

Of course people will question that.

In general drag queens are still gay men.

Trans is different.

I think this is an interesting conversation and it's nice to talk about something other than transgender stuff. For me anyway!

Of course, but people dress up in costumes (i.e. as someone or something else) all the time for plays, at Halloween, etc. It can be done offensively but not always

Why would it not be ok for me (northern European white) to dress up like Oprah next Halloween and exaggerating all of the stereotypes of Oprah’s race?

Why would it not be ok for me to dress up like a Paralympic Athlete exaggerating all of the stereotypes of having a disability?

Why would it not be ok for me to dress up like a gay women exaggerating all of the stereotypes of homosexuality?

Protected characteristics.

Except sex, as we have seen specifically female sex, isn’t included on that list

Agree @Cazzovuoi

Drag is not misogynistic. If you watched any, you'd know that drag queens dress up in homage and tribute to women

Such homage referring to women's vulvas as ;
Seafood platter
Big furry box
and women themselves as ;
Breeders.

Such " RESPECT" I think most women could do without.

Does the 'homage' include...

Taking a drag name from a murdered little girl?

Drag queen named after murdered 6 year old girl www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4076782-drag-queen-named-after-murdered-6-year-old-girl

Or abbreviating your drag name so you can get into a school and be around children?

www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5320992/drag-queen-school-flow-job-pictures-children-parents/

Or being racist whilst paying 'tribute'?

thebrag.com/aussie-clubs-apology-racist-drag-race-scandal/

Interesting.

@Cazzovuoi in answer to your first example, I think because any kind of blackface has such an appalling history. Arguably this would be dressing as a specific person rather than portraying aspects of racial stereotyping, but a white person could never do so respectfully IMO because of the historical and cultural context.

Your paralympian and gay woman examples I'm less sure of. The former reminds me of those gross Little Britain sketches about the wheelchair user. Gross on any level.

I've never heard of anyone dressing up as an exaggerated version of a gay woman stereotype tbh. I would tend to think if someone was doing that they were probably actually expressing an aspect of their own sexuality and feelings about gender. Which isn't necessarily offensive. Nobody 'owns' gender expression do they? Whereas in the first two examples, disability and race are inherent physical attributes I suppose.

[quote Aspiringmatriarch]@Cazzovuoi in answer to your first example, I think because any kind of blackface has such an appalling history. Arguably this would be dressing as a specific person rather than portraying aspects of racial stereotyping, but a white person could never do so respectfully IMO because of the historical and cultural context.

Your paralympian and gay woman examples I'm less sure of. The former reminds me of those gross Little Britain sketches about the wheelchair user. Gross on any level.

I've never heard of anyone dressing up as an exaggerated version of a gay woman stereotype tbh. I would tend to think if someone was doing that they were probably actually expressing an aspect of their own sexuality and feelings about gender. Which isn't necessarily offensive. Nobody 'owns' gender expression do they? Whereas in the first two examples, disability and race are inherent physical attributes I suppose.[/quote]
But sex isn't an inherent physical attribute?

One can become disabled through accident or illness or be mixed race but one cannot become the other sex or be mixed sex.

I think what people aren't acknowledging is that "gender" expression is based on sex.

@AlfonsoTheMango is this about the fake boobs again?

I think what people aren't acknowledging is that "gender" expression is based on sex.

Sure. Is your conclusion then that it's not acceptable to cross gender lines in any kind of portrayal?

I do not understand what gender lines means, I'm afraid.

I do know that the fake boobs you're at ease with give me exactly the same feeling as it does to see anyone else being mocked for physical traits they cannot control. Including the Little Britain sketches.

I can quite easily tell the difference between men being themselves with make-up on, and men dressing up as a pisstake of women.

[quote Aspiringmatriarch]@AlfonsoTheMango is this about the fake boobs again?[/quote]
No. I was not referring to false breasts. Not sure why you asked.

No. I was not referring to false breasts. Not sure why you asked.

Sorry, it was discussed earlier in the thread. That it was offensive because it's a physical characteristic rather than just being about gender non-conformity.

I do not understand what gender lines means, I'm afraid.

So then presumably you're very confused by this thread?

I'm certainly very confused by how you keep speaking about gender, yes.

Is it still acceptable for English men to put on a kilt and an exaggerated fake Scottish accent to tell derogatory jokes about being Scottish, by the way?

It used to be acceptable.