Calling out the misogyny in drag is "hate" now

[Ravenclawsome]

Local museum has bought a costume featured on Drag Race.

It's then criticised those that point out that drag is misogynistic. 🙄

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/2385220/ru-pauls-drag-race-dundee-museum-hits-out-at-unacceptable-abuse-over-ellie-diamond-display/

You're missing my point Gerbil. Dolly Parton's look is a very exaggerated, theatrical femininity which is a long way from how most women naturally look. And that's fine. It's fine for people to do that if they want to (imo). Including a man - unless you actually think that being gender non-conforming is not okay? If so I can respect that, but I can't agree there's any other genuine reason to object. Because if say, lipstick is fine for a man to wear, then the other stuff should be too. There's plenty of problematic and patriarchal baggage to all sorts of aspects of women's fashion, so I don't see why Boy George et al should get a pass in that case.

Either way I don't think you can argue that it's fine to be gender non-conforming and then say that an overtly feminine presentation is misogynistic. If it's misogynistic, then it's not fine to be gender non-conforming in that respect.

Gender non-conforming is a man wearing stuff that’s traditionally associated with women. Drag isn’t that, it’s dressing up as a woman. The joke/frisson of the performance is that it’s a man, not a woman. That’s only possible within a gender-conforming framework because it needs a “normal” to subvert.

So while not all, for want of a better word, traditional drag is done with the conscious intention of attacking or demeaning women (though some certainly is), it is something that can only be produced within a gendered framework and therefore can never be truly gender free. Non-conforming yes, but still reliant on gender existing.

I’m not a fan so I don’t have much knowledge here, but I think beyond that traditional drag ie a man dressing as a woman and adopting his idea of a female persona, there is an evolution that’s more about the spectacle of makeup and costume, flamboyant but not especially a woman outfit or persona anymore. That stuff I would not consider to be relying on a gendered “norm”.

Lots of women don't have hourglass boobs, hips and bum No man does, not one. A man simulating those aspects of a woman is not gender non conforming it's a man imitating and parodying a woman.

'We're not all cookie cutter replicas , and more widely GC emphasis on what body parts 'real' women have is harmful to all women (loads of differences between cis women themselves) and ablist.'

Hold on.

So the reason most drag queens dress the way they do is because of feminists?

I'm not sure I buy that argument.

On the fashion point. It changes. It would be the dominant/ aspirational look for all adult females at the time. Irrespective of gender ID.

Fashion's have included being overweight, being very pale, plucking a load of your hair out, beauty patches, giant wigs, I mean all sorts.

The ideas of what women should appear around the world encompasses burqa, foot binding, stretching the neck very long.. a massive variation.

It is not 'cis' women driving this stuff. It's about men.

Drag has taken a downward turn. I used to think it harmless fun - Dame Edna, Lily Savage, the pantomime dame. They even used to have drag entertainers at ladies nights. Is it really all misogynistic, or is it just the extreme element?

@Aspiringmatriarch

You're missing my point Gerbil. Dolly Parton's look is a very exaggerated, theatrical femininity which is a long way from how most women naturally look. And that's fine. It's fine for people to do that if they want to (imo). Including a man - unless you actually think that being gender non-conforming is not okay? If so I can respect that, but I can't agree there's any other genuine reason to object. Because if say, lipstick is fine for a man to wear, then the other stuff should be too. There's plenty of problematic and patriarchal baggage to all sorts of aspects of women's fashion, so I don't see why Boy George et al should get a pass in that case.

I'm not missing your point

I'm saying that if it's about gender non-conformity then why usually massive plastic boobs.

That's not gender it's sex.

And it's a key thing for drag in the drag Queen context and also for when men drag up in general.

Gender non-conforming is a man wearing stuff that’s traditionally associated with women. Drag isn’t that, it’s dressing up as a woman. The joke/frisson of the performance is that it’s a man, not a woman. That’s only possible within a gender-conforming framework because it needs a “normal” to subvert.
This makes sense to me, thank you. I still don't agree with attacking drag as misogyny on that basis alone though.

Gerbil lots of fashion is about imitation and paying homage to different looks. As you say, it's been fashionable for women to look 'Reubenesque' (sp?) and at other times androgynous. Admittedly drag is imitating the female form and exaggerated female fashions but does that make it a parody of womanhood per se? It just doesn't connect with me like that.

Dolly Parton's look is a very exaggerated, theatrical femininity which is a long way from how most women naturally look.

Dolly Parton is female and if you knew the first thing about her you would know why she chose that particular way of presenting herself.

Boy George does get a pass he didn't stick a pair of massive fake boobs on his chest in order to be gender non conforming, he was very clear he was a gender non conforming man not a man parodying women.

There’s a huge difference between a man wearing women’s clothes and a man dressing up as a woman.

'Gender non-conforming is a man wearing stuff that’s traditionally associated with women. Drag isn’t that, it’s dressing up as a woman. The joke/frisson of the performance is that it’s a man, not a woman. That’s only possible within a gender-conforming framework because it needs a “normal” to subvert.
This makes sense to me, thank you. I still don't agree with attacking drag as misogyny on that basis alone though.'

And this is another good question.

Why is a man dressing as a woman funny/ subversive. And seen all around the place, fake breasts invariably included.

When a woman dressing as a man is just not seen in the same way.

It's about hierarchy.

I'm saying that if it's about gender non-conformity then why usually massive plastic boobs.

Well, yes. Not always though, especially if you're including stag dos. Breasts are an aspect of sex, not gender though, that's true. I can see your point there. But honestly I'm still not seeing much cause for offence. You can imitate without being derogatory, surely?

I don't know why I've got involved in this thread really as I'm not a drag fan but it just seems like trying to police how people present themselves, which is not the same as the sex is real/safeguarding/fair play in sports arguments I'm pretty on board with.

Drag is not misogynistic. If you watched any, you'd know that drag queens dress up in homage and tribute to women

I am sure homage and tribute are at the very heart of these drag artists choice of names
Phallic Cunt
Anna Bortion
Just two of the acts on Ru Paul's show.

It's about hierarchy.

Not necessarily. People imitate because they look up to things too, because they find something aspirational in some way.

@TheRebelle

There’s a huge difference between a man wearing women’s clothes and a man dressing up as a woman.

Of course, but people dress up in costumes (i.e. as someone or something else) all the time for plays, at Halloween, etc. It can be done offensively but not always. And Drag Queens are usually playing a character aren't they?

Like a lot of people I’m baffled by the attraction for some of drag... from the outside it looks like men ripping the piss out of women in the most unimaginative ways possible... what can be more obvious than boob jokes... yawn...

Fishing. Clearly just deliberating insulting.

Boy George -can dress how he chooses - like anyone else he doesn’t AFAIK use his platform to denigrate and ‘other’ a group of people who are traditionally bullied. Aka misogyny.

Aw lost my post!

Thought I'd link a couple clips from v popular comedies for us to disagree about!

Family entertainment when I was a child - Cupid Stunt

Not drag but example of men finding it hilarious/ whatever to wear fake boobs.

I can't imagine many people watching that would have thought I don't understand why the breasts. I don't understand.

English men are very odd about boobs in general. Sort of desired, also grotesque, if larger. Nightmare for girls and women with larger breasts a lot of the time because of it.

Boy George did not wear fake boobs As far as I remember. As an English male it's more than possible he has at some point though!

Say GNC male like Kurt Cobain in s dress, Nicky wire. That chap who wore the dress/ suit thing to the Oscars he looked great.

I'm sure the difference between that and Cupid stunt and many more recent drag queens is fairly obvious?

English men are very odd about boobs in general. Sort of desired, also grotesque, if larger. Nightmare for girls and women with larger breasts a lot of the time because of it.

True. Not quite the same as drag but it's interesting. I'll continue to think there can be good and bad drag, and generally I'm on the side of people being free to present themselves as they wish, or play a character. I don't think you can do that with race without being offensive, but as (one) woman I feel comfortable saying I don't view it as inherently offensive or misogynistic. YMMV.

Men in England dress up as women because they look up to them?

We're heading off into a parallel universe now I think.

Why do drag queens usually only look up to women in massive heels, tiny clothes, big hair and loads of makeup who invariably have a not very appealing set of personality traits (I hate the word, but bitchy).

If it's about looking up to women why is there not a massive range of looks?

And anyway they don't even want to look like women. They want to look like a certain stereotype of a ridiculous looking one.

Of course, but people dress up in costumes (i.e. as someone or something else) all the time for plays, at Halloween, etc. It can be done offensively but not always. And Drag Queens are usually playing a character aren't they?

It’s interesting about the costumes. When I was a kid, typical dressing up costumes included a “red indian” or an “Arab” . Not done with any deliberate malice, but you wouldn’t get that now because we realise those familiar characters and costumes were actually just products of our culture with very little connection to or indeed interest in the real lives of the people they purported to depict. “Red Indians” and “Arabs” were ideas that real people made art about, not real people who might themselves make valid art.

So similarly with drag queens. The characters aren’t realised women characters, they are taken from a palette of female stereotypes. Slag, bitch, bimbo, tragic beauty, ice queen, amazon and so on. Not necessarily always insulting stereotypes, but stereotypes nevertheless.

As I said before, not necessarily often consciously misogynist, but definitely not unproblematic.

An interesting thought experiment is would you expect an audience react the same way to a drag act if the exact same performance in the exact same costume was done by a woman?

@Aspiringmatriarch

English men are very odd about boobs in general. Sort of desired, also grotesque, if larger. Nightmare for girls and women with larger breasts a lot of the time because of it.

True. Not quite the same as drag but it's interesting. I'll continue to think there can be good and bad drag, and generally I'm on the side of people being free to present themselves as they wish, or play a character. I don't think you can do that with race without being offensive, but as (one) woman I feel comfortable saying I don't view it as inherently offensive or misogynistic. YMMV.

Have a look at the Cupid stunt clip. I remember it because as a child that character unsettled me. I didn't get why it was so funny and it just even then felt like a pisstake of women. I didn't understand t name of course!

I agree that dressing up etc is fun. For me though all my life I've disliked it and when I was old enough I realised it read as a piss take 100%.

Some I didn't mind so much but overall the vast majority gave me that feeling.

I note that smokedduck brought race into it and I agree that is not helpful although I can see why it's done and also the objections. In the end bringing such a sensitive topic in ends up in a different conversation (argument) and I think that's unhelpful.

My feelings about drag are pretty much life long and I think the arguments that it's generally a very unpleasant parody of women i feel I can get across without comparisons which will really anger a bunch of people and I understand why and there's no need for it.

I've enjoyed discussing with you aspiring!

It's nice to share views etc in a way that doesn't get shouty even though we clearly disagree!