Calling out the misogyny in drag is "hate" now

[Ravenclawsome]

Local museum has bought a costume featured on Drag Race.

It's then criticised those that point out that drag is misogynistic. 🙄

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/2385220/ru-pauls-drag-race-dundee-museum-hits-out-at-unacceptable-abuse-over-ellie-diamond-display/

This would have been well before that! Sounds likely to me. As you say a preemptive thing.

Turn this on its head and ask who in society is allowed to be offended and it raises a pretty big question about drag.

What we've got a problem with is how one set of beliefs is somehow held as more important than another and how this is held by a particular type of person with a particular political agenda.

We can argue about whether men wearing highly sexualised clothes and having inappropriate names and behaviour is misogynistic and whether its representative all day long.

Whats striking is that the group as a whole are not held accountable or told to pull in appalling behaviour by its members in the same way other minorities are.

Whats striking is how women feel about this is irrelevant, unimportant or just labelled as otherwise unfair or unacceptable. To the point that they are told either in thinly veiled or very open ways that they should shut up or they are wrong and they should be educated.

Its almost as if the cloak of the invisible testicles is in play.

And thats perhaps the most misogynistic thing about drag of all. Women aren't allowed to find it offensive or they are not progressive or open minded enough.

We have to be told that drag is cool and we should embrace it in all sections of our lives without question (or exception).

The answer to that, as always is 'no'.

No this is not ok. Yes drag is misogynistic. Its about power and who has the power (right) to say what is offensive or not. Thats something that doesn't belong to women quite clearly.

Less just say it.

Drag is the modern acceptable face of sexism and have done with it.

As long as you are dressed as a woman you can say just about anything offensive you like about women and say its 'just being entertaining' in a way you couldnt if in trousers (or shorts on a hot day like today).

As i say the cloak of the invisible testicles.

What I think is really interesting is envisioning how a female performer would go down in the same outfits telling the same jokes. Can you imagine a group of women in a show like Drag Race, or a woman in drag-like makeup and clothes doing kids' storytime in a library?

That is a very valid point and of course the answer is no, women would be slaughtered if they so much as tried.

One reason it would go down like a lead balloon..

And yes I'm sure there are exceptions but still...

In general men and society like to pigeon hole women.

IF a young attractive woman dressed up in "sexy lady' costume. Heels short skirt cleavage hair makeup etc etc.

Then into a certain category she goes.

Then she does being funny.

Massive challenge to the pigeon hole.

Women aren't supposed to be funny full stop. Loads of men say women just aren't funny. IF a woman does being funny it's allowed if she looks some ways maybe.

But a woman who is in that pigeon hole? I mean we all know the stereotype. Varies but ideas around intelligence, sexual behaviour, preoccupation with clothes etc, possibly ideas about the sort of man they are looking for, possibly ideas about how they behave towards other women, you know the stuff.

I am uncomfortable with the blackface comparison tbh

Me too. There have been multiple threads in the past where POC have said they dislike it. Not least because the people comparing it to blackface are members of the same group who oppressed them and possibly had ancestors who wore blackface.

It's also somewhat ironic to bang on about how offensive blackface is whilst simultaneously not giving a shit that you're offending black people with the comparison. 😂

I've not made that comparison I'm pretty sure..?

Who are you thinking of?

There's a black mumsnetter on here that has said she finds the comparison apt. So, like most things, you can't just generalise and say "All x people think x".
The problem is women aren't allowed to just find it offensive. It bloody is. But like men in the prisons, refuges and toilets, we always need another excuse beyond 'it makes me uncomfortable'.
And when you're dealing with people who think X sexual assualts are a reasonable price for women to pay so everyone else is happy, obviously people are going to gravitate towards a more extreme argument.

How about no means no?

I never said all.

I said plenty.

My view is the arguments as to why drag is hopelessly misogynistic are easily strong enough to stand on their own.

Also that this comparison usually leads to arguments about the comparison which details the thread. As it is doing right now, as it goes!

And also because given the above, and that it does upset plenty of people and I understand why. I don't use it

That's just my view obv.

Oh sorry I agree with the rest of your post. It's ubiquitous though and always has been.

Being called the wrong name
Being called the wrong title
Finding xyz not funny, insulting
Being told that focusing on any women's issue is awful namalt etc (from before all this)
And on and on and on.

I'm talking about discussing on here with those posts btw

The discussion I'm referencing was where black mumsnetters were saying they found it crass for white people to co-opt the struggles they caused black people and use them to moan about how oppressed they were.

I suppose you could liken it to men complaining to women about the patriarchy.

Like I say though it's a diversion from the topic.

I have time for both views on that.

If it needs rehashing then another thread maybe.

Yes, probably another discussion. But I think an argument can be made against drag without (pardon the pun) dragging POC into it.

But I'm probs not the best person to discuss it with because I just can't get annoyed about drag. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that I'm a bit meh about it all.

If you're not fussed about drag but you do want to talk about certain comparisons that come up then a different thread is the best way to go IMO

@Aspiringmatriarch I have been nothing but polite, and have only sought clarification. You however have been snarky and I felt you were not posting in good faith. Your refusal to engage or clarify anything you said speaks volumes about your intent. Not about mine.

@SourAppleChew

I am uncomfortable with the blackface comparison tbh

Me too. There have been multiple threads in the past where POC have said they dislike it. Not least because the people comparing it to blackface are members of the same group who oppressed them and possibly had ancestors who wore blackface.

I am a black woman. I find it to be an exact comparison, because it is exactly what it is. Men using Womanface. And the prejudice, the bilious hatred, is the same. Black or woman. The entrenched misogyny of women in drag acts is very clear. As a black woman, I feel I can say that.

Fair enough, but oddly it's also mainly women that seem to love it. Most blokes aren't really into it.

Neon and of course that is AOK.

As a white woman I think the argument against drag etc can stand alone.

And it's not my area you know? Black women have their views on it. Not for me to say well you're wrong and you're right because it's a handy comparison.

Dunno if that makes sense. I'm talking about my own posts not what anyone else should say.

I do think it tends to totally derail threads though which imo is often why it's brought up by those with certain views.

@SourAppleChew

Fair enough, but oddly it's also mainly women that seem to love it. Most blokes aren't really into it.

What drag?

Enjoying the intelligent and respectful debate on this thread.

Fwiw, I have noticed a gradual move towards recognising the offence/micro aggression as perceived by the offended party rather than someone else coming along and telling someone what is and isn’t racist/antisemitic/homophobic etc. Obviously there is masses of progress still to make on this and there is a long way to go towards adequate representation of minority groups when these things are discussed and genuine listening and engagement from those who benefit from the status quo.

Unfortunately it seems that no one even attempts to allow women to define misogyny and whether something is offensive or hateful (see misogynistic abuse being able to stand on Twitter or the omission of misogyny from hate crime legislation). Women’s complaints are ignored, apparently what we find offensive is actually flattery (a trope rolled out when catcalling and sexual harassment is called out). Even our own words are taken from us or prefixed because factual language is apparently offensive to some. But that’s a whole other derail.

I personally wouldn’t want to impinge on someone’s freedom to make a living performing drag in its original setting, or people paying to see it as adult entertainment. But I don’t think it has anything positive or edifying for my daughters to see on family tv shows or down the local library or museum. I don’t think it advances the cause of LGBT education and acceptance either.

@NeonDreams no you haven't been particularly polite IMO, which stood out to me on the thread as it's generally been interesting and respectful. Quoting me repeatedly in separate posts to disagree with each element of what I said, after the thread has moved on significantly anyway, is not my idea of constructive. Particularly as you came back with exactly the same objection after I clarified what I meant about Dolly Parton and even quoted her directly. It can't be that difficult to understand, surely?

In neon's defence, it's annoying when people don't answer and the thread moves on.
And I think actually, more than anything, is that it illustrates that when women don't fit this mythical mould of femaleness, they are socialised to apologise for it.
I know men have different issues when they don't fit the mythical mould of maleness, but I don't think they apologize for it as much. And women are constantly called out for not fitting. Too thin, too fat, too clumsy, too vulgar. We're policed in a way that men just aren't. Right down to our facial expressions (smile love).

I mean the Dolly example. She is an example of apologising/ preempting.