Referendum in final deal

[Niamer]

In most life- changing decisions, there is a get-out clause. If you buy a house with rising damp, you can pull out before completion, you can break off an engagement if your Mr. Right turns out to be Mr. Notquite. I assume most reasonable people would like the opportunity to have a look at the brexit deal we get from the EU and decide if that's really the best way forward. If you agree, please sign and share. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/193282

WoodPigeon, it always comes right back round to that on these threads.
The prevailing view amongst the regular Remain posters is that Leave voters are fundamentally racist or xenophobic.
I honestly thought it may change as time progressed, but sadly not.

But then if someone is saying, that despite the facts about immigration, they just don't like foreigners coming to their country, then that is the most likely explanation why.

People don't like FOM, fine, but why? As a PP, and I have also pointed out, the government already make most of the decisions regarding it.

Its also fine to question that the reasons for someone objecting to something, and to question the validity of reasons given.

You also can't come out with the argument that all remainers have derided people as being racist and xenophobic but fail to look at the reasons why they have done that.

The government decisions thing is a valid reason, that's fine, but many others aren't.

Danny You are not listening though. It is about having control. I actually think many leave voters were taking the longer view. They want to live in a country where they can elect and otherwise influence their government, and where that government has control over immigration. You can keep saying it's about not liking foreigners if you want to

And as to why some people are still calling leave voters racist and xenophobic, I agree Copper, I really hoped people would have moved on from this by now, and to be honest, I'm not going to waste a second of my time trying to understand why some people need to cling on to their bigoted, stereotyping, narrow -minded views

If racist means "disagrees with me on immigration policy" it becomes a bit of a blunt instrument as a slur, doesn't it? Which is a shame, as there is racism in this country, and we really need to be fighting it, not using it as a big stick to try and beat leave voters with.

Does this mean that you will be happy if the government decides to continue to have similar levels of EU immigration?
I might not like it but I will accept it because it will be what the people of the UK have voted for.

its just stated as fact, FOM as been bad for the majority of the UK
According to polls, it is a fact that people currently dont want FOM.

The majority of the UK has very little EU immigration
And they dont want to wait until they do to put a stop to it.

you just don't like foreigners coming to your country
No that's not it at all, we dont like unlimited foreigners having a right to move to our country, take a job, a school place, a hospital place... without us having a say.

Guess that makes me a 'big old racist'.

My family (who voted Leave) ARE racist and as you say, just don't like people coming to the country. They have no reason to feel like this though, they live in a part of the country overwhelmingly white British and are completely unaffected by immigration. I have said before, if they lived in an area that had completely changed in character and the streets were now full of people speaking a language they don't understand and the shops sold products they don't recognise or want, I might understand why they are so anti immigrant (I say immigrant rather than immigration deliberately) but this isn't the case. It's just that they are racist, they always have been.

Did I or did I not say that the wanting a government to be responsible and accountable for all decisions was valid? And I'm not listening?

But when statements like most people have been badly effected by FOM are made its valid to ask why, or how they have been badly effected.

" we dont like unlimited foreigners having a right to move to our country, take a job, a school place, a hospital place."

Ah there we go, you know, that the foreigners who work here pay their taxes and are entitled to use services?

In fact the research shows that a fall in immigration wouldn't ease pressure on services because the fall in demand would be far less than the greater fall in funding ( caused by fewer tax payers).

"According to polls, it is a fact that people currently dont want FOM."

Did you see the one which said that that a majority of people thought that UK nationals should be allowed to move anywhere in the EU?

" unlimited foreigners having a right to move to our country,"

There aren't unlimited foreigners having the right to move to our country. Again the use of language that you choose is interesting

Incidentally, I have an Asian Muslim friend who's a translator, she hears horrible racism in the course of her work, from the people she translates for about the white British. I think racism is a much bigger problem than we are willing to acknowledge.

Did I or did I not say that the wanting a government to be responsible and accountable for all decisions was valid?

Fair enough on that point.

I think we are just going to have to move on from Danny's and Mistigri's bigoted views.

It is not racist to want to control our own countries borders, it is not ignorant to act upon what we have experienced or how we have felt.

www.independent.co.uk/student/news/kelechi-chioba-yarls-wood-detention-centre-sexual-violence-home-office-deportation-removal-nus-a7683701.html

"A disabled student who was beaten and abused by her own family in Nigeria could be sent to the UK’s most notorious detention centre while she waits to hear whether she faces deportation.

Kelechi Chioba, an asylum seeker who suffers from polio and mental health problems, was told she would be sent to Yarl’s Wood Detention Centre this month"

Would this be happening to an able bodied rich white man?

foreigners who work here pay their taxes and are entitled to use services? No one ever said they weren't entitled to use services. We just want change how many people are entitled to use those services.

Did I ever say you were bigoted? No, I asked for your reasons for not liking FOM.

But I'm going to end with this.

The fact is that when the immigration issue is debated amongst leavers the alternative facts regarding immigration are repeated.

Impacts on schools, the NHS, wages, unemployment, control of borders etc keep getting repeated, and I know others have challenged them on here and shown the facts of the situation are different. They do the same with ever closer union and the EU army, about the EU dictating to us, about the UK bankrolling a gravy train, about sovereignty and democracy.

See when the arguments for leaving boil down to being counterfactual and biased based on prejudice, then its fine to call them into question.

It is after all a forum for debate.

woman12345
what does any if that have to do with Brexit?

The fact is that when the immigration issue is debated amongst leavers the alternative facts regarding immigration are repeated

But when you experience them they are not alternative facts, they are reality. FACT: if an EU migrant moves into a house in your town then a UK family cannot move into that house. If an EU migrant takes a job in the UK then a UK national can't have it. The same same with school places, hospital places etc.

But its all ok because it isn't statistically significant. Well it matters to the me and it matters to everyone I know. And it seems it matters to a majority of people in the UK

Again the use of language that you choose is interesting

What is the fucking point?
Seriously.
Every little phrase picked apart and 'hmmmm'd' over.

For a view on what some leave voters think have a look at some of the Leave Facebook pages. I was shocked by the racism on there. Posts about booting all Muslims out of the country with hundreds and hundreds of likes. Not just the odd post either, loads of them, there were a few disagreeing with these views as well though. I did look just after the Westminster attacks if that makes a difference.

"If an EU migrant takes a job in the UK then a UK national can't have it."

EU immigration doesn't cause unemployment amongst UK Nationals FACT. Neither does EU immigration cause higher waiting times at hospitals, it also isn't responsible for the housing crisis. FACT

"But its all ok because it isn't statistically significant.Well it matters to the me and it matters to everyone I know. And it seems it matters to a majority of people in the UK"

But if it isn't statistically significant then it suggest that either numerous studies, and information provided by schools, hospitals, social housing authorities are incorrect, or that people are placing the blame for these issues on immigration incorrectly.

Its significant to identify that issue, and to explore the reasons for it.

"Every little phrase picked apart and 'hmmmm'd' over."

Yes, because language is important.

if an EU migrant moves into a house in your town then a UK family cannot move into that house.

Can I ask, do you feel the same resentment towards a British family from another part of the country moving into a local house, or attending the school?

A divided country will be the legacy of Brexit. Without a doubt. It is evident already, and not just here.

How can the increase in population due to immigration have no effect on the availability of housing? How? If there are more people, then the available housing is "shared" between a larger number. We are not building houses as quickly as the population is growing. So there is more pressure on housing. How is that not the case?

honey Yes, it was all love, caring and equality before 23rd June, wasn't it?

EU immigration doesn't cause unemployment amongst UK Nationals FACT. Neither does EU immigration cause higher waiting times at hospitals, it also isn't responsible for the housing crisis. FACT

So what facts are you using? Because UK nationals are using their own eyes. And I would suggest why they rebelled against project fear, because the so called facts did not match their real life experience.

" How is that not the case?"

Because EU immigrants are mostly young and lived in shared accommodation, they also only account in total ( including students and other nationals here for decades) for about 4% of the entire population. Half of whom were here prior to 2004.

Its not enough to cause the issues that we have with housing right now.

The housing crisis, and the problems with rent etc, are caused by the under building of houses and other dwellings for 30 something years.