Referendum in final deal

[Niamer]

In most life- changing decisions, there is a get-out clause. If you buy a house with rising damp, you can pull out before completion, you can break off an engagement if your Mr. Right turns out to be Mr. Notquite. I assume most reasonable people would like the opportunity to have a look at the brexit deal we get from the EU and decide if that's really the best way forward. If you agree, please sign and share. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/193282

Time4, that was in response to Carol's previous question, which I had explained

I realised that Danny - the tone of most of your posts come across rather headmasterly hence my post.

I reckon you'd like nothing more than to gather all Leavers together, get us to drop our kecks, bend over and give us 10 of the best with your cane whilst telling us how stupid we have been.

Nah that'd just be a bit kinky really.

:)

And I'm sure Banks, Gove, Farage and Boris would like it.

FOM is linked to the single market. That is why there is no FOM for countries outside the single market. The EU doesn't look at a national of a member state and see their 'race'. To keep going on about it as being racist is really a lot of whataboutery and a strawman to avoid discussing the real issues that the UK will be tackling because of Brexit. Anyways, the UK are leaving the EU so won't have to worry about it's decisions and organisation. Best to concentrate on the UK. That is the jurisdiction of which "everyone is taking back control'. The Kippers do get a big amount of votes. And some mainstream politicians are very dodgy on their comments about 'race'. Johnson likes to say things about Africans. And as he wasn't too far removed from become PM, what does that say about how people like that are so near the head of gov't. These comments aren't what tripped him up. People look at him as if he is such a card, in fact.

What would be interesting is to hear the positives and benefits that leaving the EU is going to bring. With a proper cost analysis. Not saying the b*stards are being nasty because we want to completely leave and they won't give us their goodies even though we wish a plague on all their houses.

Oh meant cost/benefit analysis. Everyone went on about the cost of being a member of the EU without the manifold benefits pre and post ref. Maybe the discussion on leaving the EU will focus on benefits without the cost. Mind you, I am curious about the real benefits.

The benefit to strike trade deals outside of the EU, and to be able to do it quicker than the EU would?

It would be interesting to see the example of a country with a similar economy to UK which has struck a quick and good deal like that. I guess they would be bilateral, if quick. Would they be as beneficial or as comprehensive as the ones the EU strikes, though? Or would there be a smaller or more desperate 'partner' who is in a weaker position?

Even with CETA, I have heard someone say (ok, so hearsay) that the Canadians may not be as happy as the EU. And China has quicker access to Switz's market. So it seems not equally beneficial, certainly in the early days. I don't know anything about trade deals.

The UK's big thing is services. Are lots of countries protectionist about their services? Are they usually included in trade deals?

Services are not included in trade deals usually, CETA doesn't have provision for them

Even Australia and China took 10 years to agree theirs, I think trade deals are only uncomplicated when it only involves a few things being exported and imported.

So a quick basic trade deal. Dealing with a few bits and bobs. Services is the big thing for the UK. Mind you, the arms industry is one area of manufacturing. I have visions of it becoming like Mordor and May (until deposed) will be like Sauron creating orcs.

FOM has been beneficial to the UK, because I have a statistic to prove it. Whats that you say? "FOM hasn't been good for you? Well I have a statistic to prove it is, so you will accept it whether you like it or not and put a god dam smile on your face or I will call you a racist".

You want an end to FOM, well you aren't allowed to have it unless you can explain to my satisfaction in words that I consider acceptable why that is, and you cant so your stupid. Stop mumbling there you imbecile, I have a statistic that I will pull out of my pocket and whip you with. You will have as many migrants from the EU as want to come here, I dont care that that you want to control your own borders, I control your borders and I say there shall be no controls on your border.

Eat brussel sprouts every day, they will make you live 30 days longer but make everyday more miserable. I dont care you dont want them, open your mouth and swallow because I say they are good for you.

Its a gilded cage and we want out.

Well if people go around making accusations about the impacts of FOM and they aren't actually true, then you have to wonder what the objections are.

The rest of your post is inane.

The rest of your post is inane

I thought Anon's post was a point well made.

I would say a majority of people feel FOM has been bad for them. Does that make us all liars or just all stupid?

Its really not though is it? On a site dedicated to debating the issues its perfectly fine to question things.

Its also allowed to say that you don't think answers are good enough too.

I do like the questioning of the statistics and data with nothing to back it up.

No, it doesn't make you a liar.

Can you tell me why you think FOM has been bad for the majority of people?

Danny you just dont get it do you. No matter how many people tell you, you just dont accept the answer. We dont like FOM, we dont want FOM. Just because we cant produce a statistic that you find 'acceptable', it does not make us wrong.

FOM has been bad for the majority of people because they have lived in a country that has it, we have experienced it and that experience has lead us to the conclusion that we dont want it. Hence we are leaving the EU. I am sorry you dont get it, I suppose you never will, not everyone lives inside a statistics bubble.

If we're doing subjective opinions involving how others feel, I would say that the majority of people feel that FOM has been hugely beneficial for them. Certainly when it also comes with access to other markets. I'm sure that doesn't make me a liar or stupid. Just a clairvoyant.

I was going to say that it is my opinion that FOM has been been hugely beneficial for them. But then I saw others aren't confined to it just being their opinion. I can simply pronounce how the majority of people out there feel. Mind you, I wasn't included in any poll of how people feel wrt FOM. So, any poll is limited to the people who answered the questionnaire about their feelings. Except my poll, which is gospel.

"FOM has been bad for the majority of people because they have lived in a country that has it, we have experienced it and that experience has lead us to the conclusion that we dont want it."

But you can't give me any examples of WHY its been bad, just that it has. You can't say that people have told me anything, other than what you have asserted here, without justification.

Danny I think you are struggling to understand a key aspect of the leave vote and I think until you grasp it you can demand that people explain their reasons until the cows come home, but you won't be satisfied with the answers.

It is my belief that most people who voted leave did so because they would prefer that political decisions affecting us are taken by this country, by our own democratically elected government, than that these decisions are taken by the EU.

So take immigration - they would prefer that the decision on who can enter and live in the country is made by our government, rather than that decision being taken by the EU.

Now you can put up as many reasons as you like as to why you think they are wrong to want this. It doesn't matter. It is an opinion, based on values. Your values may be different. That's fine. So for you remain was a good choice. For leavers, leave was a good choice. That's politics for you. People want different things.

You seem to have a rather odd belief that people's political choices need to correlated with your views and values and to pass your test of acceptability. News flash - no, they don't.

But you can't give me any examples of WHY its been bad, just that it has. You can't say that people have told me anything, other than what you have asserted here, without justification

I think you are being very disingenuous here. Any reasons given will be either a) dismissed as not being factually true whether they are people's actual experience or not or 2) will be called racist or xenophobic (using the immpecable and completely non-circular logic that your reasons for not wanting FOM are racist - why? - because it is racist to not want FOM, of course and round and round we go ...

You seem to have a rather odd belief that people's political choices need to correlated with your views and values and to pass your test of acceptability. News flash - no, they don't.

In a nutshell.

"It is my belief that most people who voted leave did so because they would prefer that political decisions affecting us are taken by this country, by our own democratically elected government, than that these decisions are taken by the EU."

See that's fine, I have no problem with that. Does this mean that you will be happy if the government decides to continue to have similar levels of EU immigration?

However, if you're going to say that FOM has been bad for the majority of the UK, then it needs to be quantified.

"Any reasons given will be either a) dismissed as not being factually true hmm whether they are people's actual experience or not "

Well that's not really true is it, because people's prejudices play a part in forming their views of their experience.

And the reason why I keep asking is because its just stated as fact, FOM as been bad for the majority of the UK, well the majority of the UK has very little EU immigration, of the 3.3 million EU workers in the labour force 1 million of them live in London, and if you look up most of the major cities, only a small amount of the population who were born somewhere other than the UK, were born in EU countries.

This makes up the majority of the EU immigration in the UK.

So yes its actually good to ask why you think FOM has been bad for the UK, cause it was stated.

"So take immigration - they would prefer that the decision on who can enter and live in the country is made by our government, rather than that decision being taken by the EU." It already mostly is. The government has control over minimum wage, laws about "slave labour" and the right to remove anyone not acting within their treaty rights, i.e. Working, searching for work (3 months), self sufficient or studying. The fact that we have no reliable mechanism on keeping track of people is not the fault of the EU - most other EU countries have this.

We will still need the migrant workers even after Brexit. Even the Bloody govt agree this is the case. Everyone says discussion on this point is not about racism etc, I saw some one post that they voted leave because we won't let Turkey join the EU. In a country of high employment, low birth rate and An increasingly elderly population we NEED immigrants to the UK.

But I have a real concern that the sections of population who get really het up about RECIPRICOL (can't stress this enough) FOM don't want more brown faces either. In fact so many people (not on MN I hasten to add) can't tell the difference between illegal immigrants, asylum seekers and legal EU workers. All tarred with the same brush. Foreign and not wanted here, ta very much.

Danny you just dont get it do you. No matter how many people tell you, you just dont accept the answer. We dont like FOM, we dont want FOM. Just because we cant produce a statistic that you find 'acceptable', it does not make us wrong.

FOM has been bad for the majority of people because they have lived in a country that has it, we have experienced it and that experience has lead us to the conclusion that we dont want it.

This basically boils down to not liking FOM because, regardless of the facts about immigration, you just don't like foreigners coming to your country.

You are entitled to feel like that, but by the same token, I'm entitled to think that you're a big old racist.

See that's fine, I have no problem with that. Does this mean that you will be happy if the government decides to continue to have similar levels of EU immigration?

Yes, because if they do and that is not what people want, we can apply political pressure and ultimately vote for an alternative. The government do lots of things I don't like. I accept this - it's part of living in a democracy.

However, if you're going to say that FOM has been bad for the majority of the UK, then it needs to be quantified

I will quantify - quite bad.

Any reasons given will be either a) dismissed as not being factually true hmm whether they are people's actual experience or not

Well that's not really true is it, because people's prejudices play a part in forming their views of their experience

You see this all gets a bit philosophical for me. Yes, people are who they are, and they are not you. We each have our own genes, upbringing, cultural influences, history. Obv you think yours give you an objectively better understanding of the world. We'll have to agree to differ on that.

And the reason why I keep asking is because its just stated as fact, FOM as been bad for the majority of the UK, well the majority of the UK has very little EU immigration, of the 3.3 million EU workers in the labour force 1 million of them live in London, and if you look up most of the major cities, only a small amount of the population who were born somewhere other than the UK, were born in EU countries

Okay, so you don't think it's a big issue. That's fine. Other people do. Again, your worldview and values have no greater objective truth than anyone else's.

So yes its actually good to ask why you think FOM has been bad for the UK, cause it was stated

Why is FOM bad?- Because the majority of people don't like it and want decisions on immigration to be in the hands of the government they elect.

This basically boils down to not liking FOM because, regardless of the facts about immigration, you just don't like foreigners coming to your country

You are entitled to feel like that, but by the same token, I'm entitled to think that you're a big old racist

I rest my case, m'lud.