Referendum in final deal

[Niamer]

In most life- changing decisions, there is a get-out clause. If you buy a house with rising damp, you can pull out before completion, you can break off an engagement if your Mr. Right turns out to be Mr. Notquite. I assume most reasonable people would like the opportunity to have a look at the brexit deal we get from the EU and decide if that's really the best way forward. If you agree, please sign and share. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/193282

Can I ask those who want to dismiss the views of those of us driven by feelings and prejudices, do you not have these?

I don't want to dismiss your feelings; I acknowledge your feelings, understand that they are strongly felt, but at the same time, I despise them (as you no doubt despise mine).

That's OK; we're just observers. But somehow the government has to find a way to reduce the level of polarisation, because these feeling are not confined to a small number of "extreme remainers" as people often suggest on here. Depending on the circles you move in, it's possible that all the people you meet on a daily basis are ardent remainers who are disgusted by the hounding of their EU friends and colleagues. That's certainly the case for me.

If the Poles went to the richer regions of the UK, then why is it that the poorer regions are the ones which have problems with immigration? It sounds as though there is a circle waiting to be squared.

But somehow the government has to find a way to reduce the level of polarisation,

Which at the moment, it is singularly failing to do. Perhaps that's what May's Easter homily was about - sensing people coming together over Brexit. She doesn't move in the same circles as me, or she would realise just how badly misinformed she was.

The prevailing view amongst the regular Remain posters is that Leave voters are fundamentally racist or xenophobic.

I dont think that

I wish people would use the word 'some' i think it would make these boards much pleasanter

Peregrina Yes, and the other interesting question (imho) is why there isn't more migration from the poorer regions in the UK to the wealthier ones, and to the EU27 (i.e., "other EU countries benefit from FoM but we don't"). It may be related to lack of skills (including language skills, as discussed on another thread), lack of knowledge about the EU, smaller networks as there are fewer previous migrants etc.

larry "Equally they may be poorer than the average of the EU28 but that average is dominated by France and Germany, both rich countries."

From the map you can see that there are some UK regions that are poorer than pretty much all of Western Europe, and comparable in per-capita terms to Southern Spain, Southern Italy and Greece. It isn't just a matter of France and Germany driving up the average.

One reason there isn't more migration from poorer regions to wealthier ones is the absolutely stupid costs of housing in the South East. 'Affordable' homes being sold for £250,000 - you have to be kidding!

Shit just saw coppers comment re language

Sorry copper

people who voted remain are just as guilty and anyone who says 'christians think' or 'vegetarians think' or feminists think'

I am going to stop saying leavers and remaners

Its beginning to piss me off

To be honest if i hade known that ticking one box months ago would have me labelled for the rest of my sodding life i wouldnt have fucking bothered

I don't want to dismiss your feelings; I acknowledge your feelings, understand that they are strongly felt, but at the same time, I despise them (as you no doubt despise mine)

No, I don't despise yours.

That's OK; we're just observers. But somehow the government has to find a way to reduce the level of polarisation, because these feeling are not confined to a small number of "extreme remainers" as people often suggest on here. Depending on the circles you move in, it's possible that all the people you meet on a daily basis are ardent remainers who are disgusted by the hounding of their EU friends and colleagues. That's certainly the case for me

I suppose this is where we differ. I don't think I am "an observer" and I don't think it is someone else's responsibility and not mine to try to reduce division. Posting on MN can be done so as to try to reduce division or to stoke it.

Incidentally, I don't think EU nationals should be hounded, and I don't understand why you refer to that as if it's a logical conclusion of voting leave. It really isn't.

And misti do you "despise" the proportion of remain voters who want to end FOM now that we are leaving the EU (is prioritised ending tom above staying in the single market in the recent poll)? Or is it just our actions on 23rd June which make us deplorable despicables?

Fom not tom obvs

*I am going to stop saying leavers and remaners

Its beginning to piss me off*

Me too Rufus.
It's one small facet of who I am/who we are.

Breaking news.... Theresa May to make a statement outside no10 at 11.15am today. It's on the Guardian.

What do you think she will announce?

And misti do you "despise" the proportion of remain voters who want to end FOM

Yes, of course, if they do so based on prejudice (feelings) rather than a reasoned position.

Brexit negotiations will probably go on hold until June 8th. That's the date of the snap General Election.

Good news re election!

Looks like TM is calling a lot of your bluffs; general election on June 8th.

YY Larry.

No more bleating about 'no mandate' and 'the type of Brexit wasn't on the ballot paper'.

Well played Mrs May.

Does a GE really change anything? What are the implications?

Will replace one brexit tory government with another - I don't think there is any doubt about that. The question is does a new government mean new ministers? If there is a comprehensive reshuffle, what does that do to the timeline for A50 negotiations? (My view is that this most likely delays the start of the real work of negotiation to October, giving only 11 months to complete the process.)

Alternatively, May wins but doesn't reshuffle, in which case it's a lot of sound and fury over nothing.

I guess the Labour party gets put out of its misery either way, which is something that I think both remainers and brexiters can unite on.

Does a GE really change anything? What are the implications?

It allows her to have her own mandate (if tories are voted back in), for both domestic & other areas incl Brexit direction.

It allows her to have her own mandate (if tories are voted back in), for both domestic & other areas incl Brexit direction

Well, let's see what her manifesto says about immigration, the NHS etc. The principle of telling absolute whoppers (as opposed to 'spin') is now well-established and now that the gullibility of the electorate has been demonstrated, I think we can look forward to seeing the most outrageous claims/lies ever seen in any political campaign.

It allows her to have her own mandate (if tories are voted back in), for both domestic & other areas incl Brexit direction.

I think this is broadly a good thing, although as she was happy to play pic'n'mix with the last manifesto, it probably does not change very much in reality.

Misti,

If she wins with Brexit as a policy, it gives her an uncontoversisl democratic mandate to get on with it.

You are either being deliberately obtuse or you believe that the only mandate worth having is either based on money or educational qualifications, neither of which I find appealing.

Larry I think a "mandate" is important - though I don't think that May, as the elected leader of the largest party in parliament, lacks one. You may be confusing me with someone else.

I think it is generally a good thing for politicians to lay out a clear set of policies that they can be judged by. But the critical point is that they have to be judged. And many people, including the editors of large-circulation newspapers, are happy to take the same pic'n'mix attitude to manifesto promises that May has taken to date.

This fast-and-loose attitude (to the "mandate" provided by an election win in a specific set of mandate promises) predated the May administration btw: Cameron promised, for example, to repeal the Human Rights Act within the first 100 days of the current parliament. A "mandate" that he conveniently forget, as did you and every other Tory supporter.

I think we can look forward to seeing the most outrageous claims/lies ever seen in any political campaign.

Actually this really worries me. A precedent has been set for telling huge lies with absolutely no consequences. All this talk of 'holding to account' well how exactly do you do that? Politicians seem to have realized that the worse that can happen is that they lose their job (or even get promoted), they will still get their policy (Brexit) through and their will be no going back.