Referendum in final deal

[Niamer]

In most life- changing decisions, there is a get-out clause. If you buy a house with rising damp, you can pull out before completion, you can break off an engagement if your Mr. Right turns out to be Mr. Notquite. I assume most reasonable people would like the opportunity to have a look at the brexit deal we get from the EU and decide if that's really the best way forward. If you agree, please sign and share. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/193282

Misti,

I agree but ducking questions like antisemitism when there are still extant human beings who have recently deceased relatives who fled Europe for the safety of the U.K. Is equally divisive.

The EU institutions have been notoriously soft on antisemitism and there are countries in the EU which are still pretty much openly anti Semitic, with very little response from the EU.

larry you're hilarious!! British Values!!

This is a question from the citizenship test under the section of British Values and Principles:

Britain is proud of our record of welcoming new migrants who will add to the diversity and dynamism of our national life.

True
False

How the fuck are they meant to answer that?!

Donostia,

Easy. It is true. But true does not mean ad inifinitum. Nor does it in any country on the globe.

Donostia

There's no option C?

"What are you, some kind of Remoaning expert metropolitan liberal elite traitor?"

Nor does it in any country on the globe.

Butbutbutbut... others have assured me that they voted precisely because the EU is a racist rich white people club, and we should be welcoming people from every country on the globe!

The elements,

This is a subtle debate which needs nuance; sadly neither side is providing any. Immigration is clearly positive (look at Japan which has virtually none). Equally uncontrolled mass movement of poor people to richer countries is not (look at some of the mass exoduses in Africa or China's legitimate fear of millions of n Korean refugees flooding over the border).

We need immigration but we need some control over it. Simples! The devil is in the detail.

elements

My SIL had to answer that question after being told to FO back to Afghanistan (she's Portuguese...) the week before.

She's got a school place for DN can she have it though because British DS has one in Spain? Do we cancel each other out? Or being half British, does DN get half a school place in Brexit Britian? Like a jobshare? How does it work in Brexitopia?

Yes, they must have visited places overflowing with EU migrants, and only EU migrants, and were appalled to see this evidence that the EU is a racist cabal, thus they pre-emptively voted to welcome immigration from all over the world to their town.
That's so right theElements...

talking of job-stealing, school-place stealing, house-stealing migrants...

This is a subtle debate which needs nuance

I agree with you.

Equally uncontrolled mass movement of poor people to richer countries is not

IMO you are conflating two separate things.

FOM from EU countries, even if it were "uncontrolled" (which it wouldn't be if our government had actually got its act together), is not like a mass exodus in Africa or floods of refugees (or insert any other suitably alarming scenario). If anything, FOM around the EU would be rather closer to the "rich people's club" trope - and it is reciprocal, we can do it too.

Conversely, migration from non-EU countries is already controlled. Again, our government hasn't succeeded in its own targets for bringing this down.

I agree but ducking questions like antisemitism when there are still extant human beings who have recently deceased relatives who fled Europe for the safety of the U.K. Is equally divisive.

Oh FFS stop playing "look squirrel". Both the Tory party (who can forget the Nazi dressing up costumes?) and the Labour Party have issues with anti-semitism - the leadership of both, I would remind you, are in favour of brexit.

UKIP is known for attracting anti-Semites. I don't know about the record of the LDs (though I should do) but doubt they are squeaky clean.

What does this have to do with remainers? There may be anti-Semites in the remain camp, but there are also many in the leave camp. Anti-semitism is a terrible thing but it is IMO largely irrelevant this debate - though if you would like to make it relevant we can talk about UKIPs record on this issue if you would like (my bet: you won't).

In contrast to France, for eg, the UK leave movement does not appear to be fundamentally anti-Semitic, despite anti-Semites being attracted to UKIP. (similar to Trumpism IMO: Trump is likely not anti-Semitic himself, but he does seem to have a strong appeal to anti-Semites). In both cases the bulk of xenophobic feeling is being directed against other groups.

Perhaps we need a new set of post brexit questions

Post Brexit values more like.

A divided country will be the legacy of Brexit. Without a doubt. It is evident already, and not just here

Completely agree. Question for Leavers, do you think the country is a happier place post referendum?

I voted remain and I think it is more divided with more resentment. I realise my own feelings may be colouring my view though so am interested in what Leavers think, and other remainers for that matter.

This is what a nation united behind Brexit looks like: more divided by ever, driven on one side by "feelings" about nationality and foreigners, and on the other by total incomprehension of how feelings with no basis in fact can become the bedrock of government policy

No, driven on one side by a desire to live in a democratic country able to make it's own decisions. And it does make me snort for leavers to be accused of being the ones driven by and appealing to "feelings".

Can I ask those who want to dismiss the views of those of us driven by feelings and prejudices, do you not have these? Do you really honestly believe that politicians and those in positions of power don't have them?

Is there some sort of master-race of humans who should be in charge who are untainted by feelings, prejudice or, heaven forbid, the wish to maintain the power and wealth and advantage they have over others? Who are they? Who chooses them (obvs not us plebs with our feelings 'n' stuff)? It will be much better when they fully control everything and can even tell us what to think. Then we won't be misthinking and making our own decisions on things based on our values and experiences and all that nonsense. As I said befire, bring on the dictatorship, it's the logical conclusion of deciding that some people's (37% of the electorate in this case) views and opinions are unworthy and should be ignored.

TheElements,

The mass movement of Polish people to the UK a few years ago was from a country where the average GDP per capita was about 20% of ours. This is not a rich person's club.

'We can do it too'

Well, up to a point. English is, de facto, the global language and there are many jobs on the continent only available to native speakers. Equally (and this is where some say we did not deal with the EU appropriately) many jobs in France are kept for French nationals only (France is the country I know the best but I am sure this is also true in other countries).

We are (and I personally hope will continue to be) a very open country where everyone who can contribute and compete fairly is welcome.

Misti,

I am not worried about UKIP's influence on uk race laws. Marine Le Pen, more so. And as for the Baltic states, I would not feel comfortable, as someone of Jewish heritage, visiting them.

Overall, do I feel that the Eu institutions really care about us Jews, maybe not so much (with some honourable exceptions). Is it central to this debate, maybe not. But your arrogant dismissal of my (and I suspect others) concerns about a renaissance of antisemitism in mainland Europe will certainly affect how I feel about continued membership of a club which may well not want me (personally) in it.

English is, de facto, the global language and there are many jobs on the continent only available to native speakers.

The poor language skills of the British is not the fault of the EU, nor in fact anybody's fault but our own.

Question for Leavers, do you think the country is a happier place post referendum?

Obvs it's not a simple question. I am happier to be leaving the EU and many share this view. Others think it's the right thing to do for democracy, so probably aren't "happy" about it. Others hate it.

But I think, probably more importantly in the long run, the referendum and aftermath have shed light on a deep and corrosive division in our society, and have highlighted the intellectual and moral vacuosness of many on the liberal left. I think, in the long run, this is a good thing, as once this sort of thing is exposed it starts to loose its power, and I believe things will change as a result. Are people happier in the meantime? Probably not, but I'd rather be less happy and aware of the truth than in blissful ignorance.

"The idea of a referendum on the final deal is disingenuous. What is the alternative? Have The EU offered us the status quo ante if we don't like the deal? "

Nobody had any idea of the scenarios available in leaving the EU in the 2nd ref in 2016. Norway or New Guinea?

I recently read Dennis Skinner's book, 'Sailing Close to the Wind'. In it, he mentions how they had Poles and Ukrainians working alongside them in the pits, and there were no problems at all. He attributes this to their being members of the NUM and being paid the proper wage. Unlike now, where Agency work, zero hours contracts and the hobbling of the Trades Unions have destroyed many workers rights and set one group against another.

Elsewhere Skinner also talks about how down a pit there is just no room for squabbles, being a dangerous environment where each worker depends on the others. I don't vote the same way as Dennis Skinner, but I think he is a politician of integrity, and wish that we had more like him, and could clear out some of the current spineless placeholders.

Leavers.
Stop engaging with these people.
Leave won.
We've triggered A50 & are on our way to leaving the EU.
Fanatical remainers will continue to try and sabotage the will of the people & democracy, but they'll get nowhere.
Leave them to argue amongst themselves.

Abso-fucking-lutely.
Not worth it one bit.

As potential details of Brexit negotiations get closer on the horizon, access to free trade is seen as a greater priority than limiting immigration for the first time since November of last year. Closer reading of the data also reveals that this swing in opinion is driven largely by over-65s, with those who prioritise immigration dropping dramatically from 61% in March to 47% in April.

www.orb-international.com/article.php?s=orb-daily-telegraph-poll-april-2017-public-approval-for-brexit-process-increases-in-wake-of-article-50-but-focus-on-immigration-falls

TheElementssong,

Our poor language skills (on average...there are some great uk linguists) are not really anyone's fault but a consequence of speaking a dominant language.

The mass movement of Polish people to the UK a few years ago was from a country where the average GDP per capita was about 20% of ours. This is not a rich person's club

Most regions in the UK are poorer than the EU-28 average, and quite a few are poorer than the wealthier regions in Eastern and Southern Europe (see the map below). We may think of the UK as a rich country, but in fact only some parts of it are:

ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Gross_domestic_product_(GDP)per_inhabitant_in_purchasing_power_standard(PPS)_in_relation_to_the_EU-28_average,by_NUTS_2_regions,2014(¹)(%25_of_the_EU-28_average,EU-28%3D_100)_RYB2016.png

Missmoon,

What an absurd non sequitur! I don't think the majority of the poles went to the poor regions, do you? Equally they may be poorer than the average of the EU28 but that average is dominated by France and Germany, both rich countries.