90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

@ParadiseLaundry Vitamin D is a very complex issue, with perceived associations and correlations of all stripes. It isn't a given that low vitamin D correlating with bad Covid outcomes means that supplementation would help, and there are also studies indicating that over-supplementation itself can carry risks. It's not as simple as it looks.

(*speaking as someone with chronic, severe vitamin D deficiency, here.)

@churchofthepoisonmind

When these vaccines were first announced, there were some claims that they would prevent people catching Covid at all (I can't be arsed to Google but I am certain I heard some claim this). Then when it became clear that this was not the case, that claim shifted to reduced the chance of you catching or passing on the virus. I don't know the precise figures but it is clear now that both vaccinated are catching and spreading on this virus. Thus the claim that the unvaccinated represent a danger to others has kind of died down a bit as it sounds rather silly given vaccine does not prevent infection. Thus the narrative now has become "the non-vaccinated will take up hospital beds." This is trending all over social media (and let's also remember that this trending DOES NOT happen by accident). Yet think about it. This virus is a much bigger risk to the very old (70+) and the clinically vulnerable. Both these groups have extremely high take-up rates of the vaccination (by necessity) which in theory should prevent them blocking beds in ICU. That just leaves unvaccinated, healthy people in younger age groups whose risk of being hospitalised or killed from this virus is extremely low (it is miniscule when one gets below 50 - the government's own figures support this). Thus anybody who says the non-vaccinated are blocking ICU beds (on a major scale) or risking the "NHS being overwhelmed" are either lying or are seriously misinformed. It's bullshit, basically.

Yet the ICU is mostly full of unvaccinated.....

There's 7.9 billion people on this planet and 5 million recorded covid deaths and we all know the data has been exaggerated so it's probably no way near that number.

Actually, it is thought that it is far more than 5 million. Many countries have inaccurate recordings. Your whole post is full of misinformation.

@churchofthepoisonmind

When these vaccines were first announced, there were some claims that they would prevent people catching Covid at all (I can't be arsed to Google but I am certain I heard some claim this). Then when it became clear that this was not the case, that claim shifted to reduced the chance of you catching or passing on the virus. I don't know the precise figures but it is clear now that both vaccinated are catching and spreading on this virus. Thus the claim that the unvaccinated represent a danger to others has kind of died down a bit as it sounds rather silly given vaccine does not prevent infection. Thus the narrative now has become "the non-vaccinated will take up hospital beds." This is trending all over social media (and let's also remember that this trending DOES NOT happen by accident). Yet think about it. This virus is a much bigger risk to the very old (70+) and the clinically vulnerable. Both these groups have extremely high take-up rates of the vaccination (by necessity) which in theory should prevent them blocking beds in ICU. That just leaves unvaccinated, healthy people in younger age groups whose risk of being hospitalised or killed from this virus is extremely low (it is miniscule when one gets below 50 - the government's own figures support this). Thus anybody who says the non-vaccinated are blocking ICU beds (on a major scale) or risking the "NHS being overwhelmed" are either lying or are seriously misinformed. It's bullshit, basically.

Well none of your first paragraphs are true you must have been reading stuff on social media not data

And your later paragraphs completely ignore the concepts of rates, averages and populations so are also completely wrong

Vaccines reduce transmission, serious disease and death. Facts

It’s all about averages

Vaccines reduce transmission, serious disease and death.

Why are recovered people being pushed to have numerous vaccines?

Where is the science that shows that they need them?

@churchofthepoisonmind

When these vaccines were first announced, there were some claims that they would prevent people catching Covid at all (I can't be arsed to Google but I am certain I heard some claim this). Then when it became clear that this was not the case, that claim shifted to reduced the chance of you catching or passing on the virus. I don't know the precise figures but it is clear now that both vaccinated are catching and spreading on this virus. Thus the claim that the unvaccinated represent a danger to others has kind of died down a bit as it sounds rather silly given vaccine does not prevent infection. Thus the narrative now has become "the non-vaccinated will take up hospital beds." This is trending all over social media (and let's also remember that this trending DOES NOT happen by accident). Yet think about it. This virus is a much bigger risk to the very old (70+) and the clinically vulnerable. Both these groups have extremely high take-up rates of the vaccination (by necessity) which in theory should prevent them blocking beds in ICU. That just leaves unvaccinated, healthy people in younger age groups whose risk of being hospitalised or killed from this virus is extremely low (it is miniscule when one gets below 50 - the government's own figures support this). Thus anybody who says the non-vaccinated are blocking ICU beds (on a major scale) or risking the "NHS being overwhelmed" are either lying or are seriously misinformed. It's bullshit, basically.

I remember before the vaccine was developed that the drs and scientists were saying that it’s unlikely we’ll have a vaccine for covid as we’ve never developed a successful coronavirus vaccine. I was very surprised when one was developed so soon after those claims. These vaccines may reduce severity and transmission but their efficacy wanes fairly rapidly.

I know we are not in the US but even Fauci himself has admitted that the narrative has changed.

I accept that the situation is evolving but we were told in the beginning of mass vaccination that it would provide herd immunity.

And I think a lot of people got vaccinated on that basis. Now they are being asked to have at least one (and probably more) boosters and there is no more talk of achieving herd immunity.

It's incredible how many people try to claim that we all knew all along that vaccine effectiveness would wane really quickly. I don't remember anything being said to the public about vaccines needing regularly boosted and them still not preventing infection and transmission.

@Beachcomber I agree that there was no mention of efficacy waning / need for booster when the vaccination programmes began.

I always understood their efficacy to be linked to preventing serious illness/ death rather than getting covid at all. But I don't think media was totally clear on this, as my own experience of peoples reaction when I got covid suggests. I got it in the summer despite being double jabbed & my husband and I were ill (not seriously at all, but it wasn't nice). I got quite a lot of messages after posting something about having it on SM from people very anxious / surprised that I'd got it despite double jab. So many thought it was impossible to get it with vaccine. There was clearly a lot of miss-information around then, and there probably still is now

“ It's incredible how many people try to claim that we all knew all along that vaccine effectiveness would wane really quickly. I don't remember anything being said to the public about vaccines needing regularly boosted and them still not preventing infection and transmission.”

It keeps changing. Even after we realised we’d need two shots, we were told initially that if you’d had covid, then you’d only need one as contracting the virus counted as one of the two exposures required. Then it was ignored and now everyone needs 3 shots. I’ve heard that 2 shots of Pfizer is effective for omicron. I’m half expecting to be told that AstraZeneca is good enough anymore and we all need 2 shots of Pfizer.

I always understood their efficacy to be linked to preventing serious illness/ death rather than getting covid at all.

They were really pushing the ‘greater good’ argument which meant people thought that it would protect others as well as themselves from being infected at all. So yes, I agree that it came as a surprise to people that being double vaccinated didn’t prevent you from being infected (although thankfully it has held up well against serious illness). I’m still surprised at how often people on MN say things like ‘we need to be vaccinated to protect others’/herd immunity etc though.

@Beachcomber

I know we are not in the US but even Fauci himself has admitted that the narrative has changed.

I accept that the situation is evolving but we were told in the beginning of mass vaccination that it would provide herd immunity.

And I think a lot of people got vaccinated on that basis. Now they are being asked to have at least one (and probably more) boosters and there is no more talk of achieving herd immunity.

It's incredible how many people try to claim that we all knew all along that vaccine effectiveness would wane really quickly. I don't remember anything being said to the public about vaccines needing regularly boosted and them still not preventing infection and transmission.

Why do you have such a problem with boosters? Genuine question. It's completely normal to have the flu jab every year. I don't see why there would be anything negative about having a yearly or twice-yearly Covid jab (except for people with phobias, who need a needle-free form).

@bumbleymummy

I always understood their efficacy to be linked to preventing serious illness/ death rather than getting covid at all.

They were really pushing the ‘greater good’ argument which meant people thought that it would protect others as well as themselves from being infected at all. So yes, I agree that it came as a surprise to people that being double vaccinated didn’t prevent you from being infected (although thankfully it has held up well against serious illness). I’m still surprised at how often people on MN say things like ‘we need to be vaccinated to protect others’/herd immunity etc though.

It does contribute to protecting others. You are contradicting the NHS's information. Misleading people about vaccine efficacy and safety leads to avoidable deaths.

I do think we can have herd immunity but through contracting the virus.
The vaccines will help so death rates stay low and many more recover but herd immunity could come from contracting the virus. But it’ll probably be purely down to the vaccines of course.

@Beachcomber

I know we are not in the US but even Fauci himself has admitted that the narrative has changed.

I accept that the situation is evolving but we were told in the beginning of mass vaccination that it would provide herd immunity.

And I think a lot of people got vaccinated on that basis. Now they are being asked to have at least one (and probably more) boosters and there is no more talk of achieving herd immunity.

It's incredible how many people try to claim that we all knew all along that vaccine effectiveness would wane really quickly. I don't remember anything being said to the public about vaccines needing regularly boosted and them still not preventing infection and transmission.

Of course the narrative has changed. Now we know the vaccines do not prevent spread (the one logical justification for mandates) the message is switching to "oh but the unvaccinated will become ICU bed blockers". This is simply not happening. People can check the stats if they wish. @sleepwouldbenice some vague piffle about "averages" and claiming my first two paras are not true (despite not stating specifically why) does not answer the issues raised. The narrative now being pushed is simply an unjustified attempt to scapegoat the unvaccinated. Only the criminally naïve would fall for it.

It's all starting to look rather shambolic and unscientific to me. If science is only good for a few months then maybe it would be better to slow down a bit and wait for better data on which to base huge decisions like how to vaccinate entire populations.

I have been reprimanded before on here for describing covid vaccines as "experimental". And I accept that the vaccines themselves aren't experimental in the sense that they have been tested and approved for use. However, let's face it, the vaccine programme is experimental. They are making it up as they go along and that is not responsible or scientific IMO.

@Beachcomber they have been described by authorities as experimental or words to similar effect. I don't see the big deal in that, why deny it!?

@Beachcomber Fauci has been heavily challenged by Rand Paul. There are claims he has lied repeatedly about gain of function research.

I've always wanted to finish a thread off!

[quote churchofthepoisonmind]@Beachcomber Fauci has been heavily challenged by Rand Paul. There are claims he has lied repeatedly about gain of function research.[/quote]
Why is there not more news on this or am I just not reading the right media?

@TheScenicWay
Good video of exchange between Fauci and Paul below:

I am as left as they come but Paul has been brilliant during this pandemic! Absolute hero. Just watch Fauci squirm.

Why do you have such a problem with boosters?

Good question @Innocenta

Because they weren't on the cards in the beginning so I'm losing faith in the people who make decisions about what goes in my body. I don't think they have a long term strategy. I think they are making it up as they go along.

Because AFAIK repeated boosters have not been tested for efficacy or safety.

Because repeated boosters change the risk benefit ratio considerably.

Because in many countries (including the one I live in) many basic freedoms are denied to people who do not accept to be triple jabbed and they have no guarantee that they won't be required to have endless boosters.

Because soon my 18 year old student DD will not be allowed to go to her university library or have a drink outside in a pavement café if she does not accept multiple vaccinations that she almost certainly doesn't need.

Because I live in France where we have EU covid passes that require us to have 3 jabs in order to go about our daily business and the EU is talking about limiting the validity of those passes to 9 months.

www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/official-eu-commission-unveils-plans-to-make-vaccination-passports-valid-for-only-9-months/

Another @TheScenicWay
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/rand-paul-dr-fauci-lies-congress-b1968856.html
Note the 'fact-checkers' deny this is the case

[quote churchofthepoisonmind]@TheScenicWay
Good video of exchange between Fauci and Paul below:

I am as left as they come but Paul has been brilliant during this pandemic! Absolute hero. Just watch Fauci squirm.[/quote]