90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

[quote Lostinacloud]@WoodyGd that sounds really tough and shouldn’t be happening but why aren’t you blaming the government? They have found billions for their mates’ covid testing businesses and more billions for vaccines for healthy not at risk teens and adults but can’t invest in the NHS during a pandemic or pre pandemic when faced with an ever ageing population?
Next they plan to sack thousands of healthcare workers because they wish to make a choice over what goes into their own bodies.
I can see why in the short term you would be frustrated by non vaccinated Covid patients using beds in icu but really we should all be asking much more of the government and not of each other.[/quote]
🙄🙄🙄🙄

I've seen this doing the rounds but it's in fact taken from very old data at a point in time where the vaccine roll-out was not complete. The percentages look very different now.
Please don't post inaccurate information, it's not helpful.

I’d like to ask unvaccinated people, who have chosen not to have the vaccination how they’d feel about taking up an ICU bed and potentially preventing 10 lifesaving operations? Causing others to potential death or worsening outcomes

How do they justify this

The NHS has needed saving for the last 10 years.

@MaxNormal

I've seen this doing the rounds but it's in fact taken from very old data at a point in time where the vaccine roll-out was not complete. The percentages look very different now. Please don't post inaccurate information, it's not helpful.

It was in the Sunday Times and the article specifically refers to new figures.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l?shareToken=1f6f931336c8b8af741d20be581114ca

"The percentages look very different now."

What are the percentages now?

@WoodyGd exactly! The beds are available but not the staff. That’s not due to unvaccinated patients, that’s due to lack of investment.
I think it’s high time we took the spotlight and main responsibility off of each other to try and contain an airborne microscopic virus and focused it back on the government who have the job of properly allocating our taxes.

If there were enough hospitals, beds, equipment and staff to cope with the almost doubled and ever ageing population since the start of the NHS then the country might be able to cope with the winter seasons.

@WoodyGd

I manage a surgical service across two hospital sites.

The worst part of my job is calling patients to tell them their surgery is cancelled due to no ITU bed. These are not people who are having some routine minor surgery, they need ITU because they are due for major life saving surgery.

They’ve planned their time off, they’ve isolated, they’ve been swabbed, they’ve had countless appointments/tests/pre ops and then they get me on the phone saying “sorry no go”.

The worst part is that you don’t know how it will go until the day before. There is a meeting first thing everyday to see if any patients can stepped down from ITU to a normal bed. If it’s a no then it’s a case of, ok there’s one bed, who gets it? We have specialities fighting each other for the chance to go ahead, pitting cancer against cancer or AAAs. Patients losing limbs because the bypass they need can’t be done because there isn’t a bed for them afterwards (might as well just take the limb once the leg is rotten enough).

All so some thicko can practice his or her right to not be vaccinated. It’s disgusting.

I already know I’ll have a cancellation this morning, it’s beyond bloody depressing

This

@ivykaty44

I’d like to ask unvaccinated people, who have chosen not to have the vaccination how they’d feel about taking up an ICU bed and potentially preventing 10 lifesaving operations? Causing others to potential death or worsening outcomes

How do they justify this

Anyone who is currently unvaccinated is either very selfish and/or completely lacking in critical thinking skills. You won't get a satisfactory answer.

Been hearing this from friends who work in our local hospital - they have a lot of unvaccinated ‘healthy’ younger adults in hospital with Covid. The vaccinated ones tend to have other health issues which have made them more vulnerable or complicated apparently.
Friend in ICU has said point blank that in her medical opinion as a DR that those most unvaccinated patients would not been in hospital all if they’d had their jabs.
She’s got one guy in a bad way who is a COvid denier and won’t accept he even has Covid - or he didn’t when am he was still conscious anyway.

Anecdotally at least - i.e. going from the reports of ICU staff all over the country - the picture is no better now. So the "old data" excuse doesn't really work.

This is the January to July data. Including the winter peak when noone was fully vaccinated.

@pianolessons1 that’s rubbish and a horrible way to judge people, which has been encouraged throughout the past year by the media. Frankly I deem anyone who has been sucked in by that rhetoric to be the ones lacking critical thinking.
There are a whole host of people who aren’t vaccinated for so many reasons:
Ongoing side effects from an initial vaccine (their own or that of someone close to them)
The ability to assess their own risk based upon their individual health factors and the high chance that they’d survive covid without it.
Previous infection meaning their body made the antibodies instead of a vaccine.
Their unwillingness to have a vaccine which hasn’t been fully tested as they understand it.
Severe needle phobias
Teens (and soon children) who’s parents are unhappy with the safety data so far released.
Religious or personal reasons.
I’m sure there are a mountain of other reasons but the above are just a few.

At the end of the day, medical treatment should remain a personal choice. It’s the NHS which continues to require investment, not the vilification of a few stubborn adults.

I work in ICU and we expanded our unit to ensure we have a separate, controlled, unit for Covid , The Red Zone, plus the same amount of beds as we always had for other patients. Getting enough staff of course is another matter. Working in full PPE is difficult, it can be harrowing and it can take 8 staff to turn one patient. But yes , 90% are unvaccinated and we’ve had two emergency C sections on our unit ( unheard of before ). The babies were OK, sadly one of the mothers didn’t make it. So rest assured, we are handling just as many ICU patients as we ever were plus Covid. Anybody who wants to work in ICU are welcome to join us. We need everybody we can get.

@WoodyGd that sounds really tough and shouldn’t be happening but why aren’t you blaming the government? They have found billions for their mates’ covid testing businesses and more billions for vaccines for healthy not at risk teens and adults but can’t invest in the NHS during a pandemic or pre pandemic when faced with an ever ageing population?

Yes, the NHS has been underfunded for 20 years. Yes, we should be angry at the government for allowing the NHS to run at full capacity before a new and additional health thread (Covid) arrived. Yes, we should be furious at them for selling us Brexit which lost us valuable healthcare staff.

But the problem is a lack of staff. It takes years and years to train doctors and nurses. All the billions in the world can’t immediately magic an ICU nurse out of thin air, unless you just want to recruit Dave from down the pub and give him a nursing job.

Meanwhile, the vaccine is a pretty much immediate answer to the new health threat.

I can’t imagine how I’d feel if I or a relative were having life-saving surgery cancelled in these circumstances. Particularly with cancer where every week counts.

[quote Lostinacloud]@WoodyGd exactly! The beds are available but not the staff. That’s not due to unvaccinated patients, that’s due to lack of investment.
I think it’s high time we took the spotlight and main responsibility off of each other to try and contain an airborne microscopic virus and focused it back on the government who have the job of properly allocating our taxes.[/quote]
And waste millions of tax payers' money on something that is largely avoidable with a vaccine? No thanks.

I’d like to ask unvaccinated people, who have chosen not to have the vaccination how they’d feel about taking up an ICU bed and potentially preventing 10 lifesaving operations? Causing others to potential death or worsening outcomes

How do they justify this

Me me me and my riiiiights, Bill Gates and 5G, it only kills old unhealthy people and I’m super fit, I’ve done my RESEARCH, blah blah

The blame for the collapse of the NHS continues to be placed at the door of the dirty, diseased, thick antivaxxers. I read yesterday that it was their fault that cancer patients are missing vital operations. With lots of sanctimonious sound bites from the nurses and doctors lowering themselves to treat them who clearly feel they are going above and beyond.

Looking forward to next week’s headlines about how climate change is actually the fault of unvaccinated people.

I am vaccinated. But I am sickened by the demonisation and persecution of people who have chosen not to have the vaccine, as is their right.

And you would be in favor of this approach for smokers, drinkers, people who eat junk food and are overweight, people who go rock climbing or mountaineering and end up being rescued with frostbite or broken limbs? After all, they knew the risks…

In some of those examples, absolutely. If you want to spend your life doing something that craps up your lungs or liver, don’t come crying when you inevitably end up with crapped up lungs/liver.

But I don’t think that the NHS is going to crumble under the heavy burden of treating injured mountaineers any time soon so couldn’t get worked up about that.

Maybe because they’re terrified of dying from the vaccine? There have been some pretty scary stories about people who have.
Alcoholics, smokers (majority of lung cancer sufferers), obese etc etc are also causing the NHS problems that could be preventable.

This is not on the old data, that excuse won’t wash for this article. And it’s what my ICU doctor DSis is also experiencing. Virtually all the covid patients are unvaccinated, those who are vaccinated have significant other issues that mean they were unlikely to respond as well to the vaccination through no fault of their own. Tbh the “conflicting advice” thing for pregnant women is starting to wear thin too. The advice has been absolutely crystal clear for a good 6 months or so now.

It is just so unnecessary and depressing. Much sympathy for doctors and nurses who have to do this 2 years into a pandemic for people who think they are special.

[quote Lostinacloud]@pianolessons1 that’s rubbish and a horrible way to judge people, which has been encouraged throughout the past year by the media. Frankly I deem anyone who has been sucked in by that rhetoric to be the ones lacking critical thinking.
There are a whole host of people who aren’t vaccinated for so many reasons:
Ongoing side effects from an initial vaccine (their own or that of someone close to them)
The ability to assess their own risk based upon their individual health factors and the high chance that they’d survive covid without it.
Previous infection meaning their body made the antibodies instead of a vaccine.
Their unwillingness to have a vaccine which hasn’t been fully tested as they understand it.
Severe needle phobias
Teens (and soon children) who’s parents are unhappy with the safety data so far released.
Religious or personal reasons.
I’m sure there are a mountain of other reasons but the above are just a few.

At the end of the day, medical treatment should remain a personal choice. It’s the NHS which continues to require investment, not the vilification of a few stubborn adults.[/quote]
Most of those come under the broad heading of lack of critical thinking ability, if you can't weigh up the obvious pros and cons.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus
Is there any additional information on the patients who are unvaccinated? How many of them are are CEV and ineligible for vaccination? Pregnant or post-partum women who've had a lot of conflicting advice even from health care professionals?

People who are CEV are not ineligible for the vaccine, they were prioritised at the beginning of the programme.

Pregnant women have been encouraged by HCP to come forward since April. The only conflicting advice would appear to be on social media. What is devastating is children growing up without their mothers, because sensible healthcare advice is downed out by Facebook scientists.