90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

[quote Beadebaser]@churchofthepoisonmind that’s helpful isn’t it. Let’s completely dismiss what he says and assume he never gets it right. Let’s encourage people to break guidelines so they spread Covid about and the NHS collapses. Good idea.[/quote]
Let's be 100 per cent clear here @Beadebaser - if we had listened to the likes of Ferguson in summer and not opened up, we might conceivably be having the nightmare the likes of Germany have recently. This is because there is a line of thought that we got some of our cases out of the way in summer by reopening while they simply kicked the can down the road.
Everybody is allowed to get things wrong sometimes. This guy gets it wrong - ALL THE TIME. His track record on pandemics and also going back go foot and mouth disease is astonishingly bad. But his face clearly fits.
It is because people like him are guiding policy that myself and people like me view the guidelines with complete contempt.

[quote IHateFlies]@bumbleymummy that’s excellent. I hope it has some traction and it’s reversed. And care workers can have their jobs back too, if they even want them now.[/quote]
It would certainly help with the current care situation!

[quote IHateFlies]@bumbleymummy that’s excellent. I hope it has some traction and it’s reversed. And care workers can have their jobs back too, if they even want them now.[/quote]
Quite a few I know have got jobs working for Amazon. Better pay! Who can blame them.

It is because people like him are guiding policy that myself and people like me view the guidelines with complete contempt.

This - 100%.

@toomuchlaundry

I also assume many of the needle phobic non vaccinated accept needles when they are in hospital having life saving treatment

Yes, in the same way that arachnaphobes woldn't react to a spider on their face when asleep! That argument makes no sense at all. If they were awake then they'd still be phobic and it should be in their notes.

[quote Beadebaser]@Beachcomber that’s an assumption. They are not. You will have more sensible and less sensible people.

Rudeness is coming from the anti science and pro science sides.[/quote]
Of course sensible people can spot crazy microchip lizard antivaxx stuff. And most people are sensible and don't give headspace to nonsense.

Sensible people thinking about and disagreeing on certain things is perfectly normal and OK. Indeed it should be encouraged. But I don't think the current climate is like that - there is a move towards really narrow thinking where one is seemingly either 100% for vaccinating everyone several times with covid vaccines or one is an "anti-vaxxer".

I hope that this lack of nuance is only prevalent in internet discussions and that the people who make the big decisions are keeping their eyes and ears open and are willing to adapt their position as the situation evolves. There is no shame in not having a crystal ball. We are dealing with a new virus, with new vaccines, with new mutations and new emerging data. Entrenched positions do not allow for agility, adaptability and humility.

@Beachcomber there is also room for manipulation. A few months ago we were getting links to far right think tanks and hosting platforms like bitchute. Whether the posters linking here realised or not I don’t know - BUT those type of sites are far right, and are run by individuals with very extreme political views. I would say they have an agenda to indoctrinate others.
People would come on here knowing to dilute their views somewhat, but still get a toxic message across.
If you wanted to vote (because that’s the power we have) for anti restrictions and freedom of choice - who would we vote for? Please answer because it is a very big question.

Vaccines are the best weapon we have at the moment

@CaliforniaDrumming

Weapon against what exactly? Infection? Transmission? Hospitalization?

What is the objective of mass vaccination against covid19? What is the strategy?

When the vaccines first started to be used on a mass scale, I understood that the objective was herd immunity.

We now know that the immunity provided by vaccines wanes and that it wanes quickly. We also know that the virus mutates and initial tests suggest that there is a very large drop in neutralization of the Omicron variant relative to an earlier strain of COVID-19

We are not going to achieve herd immunity with vaccines.

So what is the new strategy? What are we fighting for ? It now looks like our only choice may be "damage limitation" AKA vaccinating the vulnerable, trying to understand natural immunity better, developing treatments for covid sufferers and not putting all our eggs in one basket.

Vaccines are ONE weapon. They are not the only one and they have been allowed to dominate the discussion too much as a result of wishful thinking.

[quote Beadebaser]@Beachcomber there is also room for manipulation. A few months ago we were getting links to far right think tanks and hosting platforms like bitchute. Whether the posters linking here realised or not I don’t know - BUT those type of sites are far right, and are run by individuals with very extreme political views. I would say they have an agenda to indoctrinate others.
People would come on here knowing to dilute their views somewhat, but still get a toxic message across.
If you wanted to vote (because that’s the power we have) for anti restrictions and freedom of choice - who would we vote for? Please answer because it is a very big question.[/quote]
I'm heading out just now but I'll answer your question later.

@Beachcomber Ok.

@Beachcomber - you’re answer to @CaliforniaDrumming there.

But that’s not the case - the building blocks would be in place to adapt the vaccine to new variants. No one would know the answer RIGHT NOW. I certainly don’t, you certainly don’t. I would never expect the vaccine to be a magic solution, or to be 100% effective now or in the future - but it is the best solution we have.

I simply don’t understand the mindset that wants to go against what the consensus of medical thought is worldwide. We are in a pandemic - and we don’t have the luxury of a crystal ball - so we go with what the majority are advising right now.

Encouraging others to go against science is going to cause negativity, confusion, division, deaths and won’t get us out of this hole any sooner.

You’re expecting science to be perfect and it is not. But that doesn’t mean that you monopolise on any flaw to push an anti science agenda.

@toomuchlaundry I also assume many of the needle phobic non vaccinated accept needles when they are in hospital having life saving treatment

No. As a needle-phobe, you'd have to knock me out first. Or the pain of whatever it was would have to be so bad that I didn't notice what else was going on.

I am completely pro vax. My daughter is completely pro vax. She is also MASSIVELY needle phobic. She has turned up for her jab on five occasions so far and had hypnotherapy to help her but as yet she has still not got herself over the line.

I am so worried that there will be people who will be baying for her not to be treated if she gets covid but she has a genuine mental health issue which so far has prevented her getting the jab despite her being pro.

@Tiredalwaystired

I am completely pro vax. My daughter is completely pro vax. She is also MASSIVELY needle phobic. She has turned up for her jab on five occasions so far and had hypnotherapy to help her but as yet she has still not got herself over the line.

I am so worried that there will be people who will be baying for her not to be treated if she gets covid but she has a genuine mental health issue which so far has prevented her getting the jab despite her being pro.

I wouldn't be baying for her blood. She should fall under medical exemptions. And hopefully there will be a non-needle option soon. Exactly why the rest of us who don't have needle phobia should take it.

As I have said earlier, everyone deserves NHS treatment if the decision they made does not pan out so well. (though I support certain requirements for transplants etc).

@DottyHarmer

As pp observed, the “anti-vaxxers” on social media (and very much MN) are not out and proud. They are stealthy. When the vaccination programme first started there were no end of faux innocent posts along the lines of, “I’m not anti-vaccine but I’m just worried that studies have shown that they lead to infertility/instantaneous death” . They so often had the same posting style that it was pretty obvious that they were all out of the same stable.

Vaccines are not 100% effective. That’s an absolute pisser. But at the moment they’re the best weapon we have. I’m not really seeing any other weapons at all. I was speaking with a health professional (yep, a real one!) and they said once you strip out the vaccinated very elderly, everyone who was in the hospital with covid was unvaccinated, and how very frustrating this was.

They now pretend to be vaccinated. Amazing how many posts we’ve had from totally doubled vaxxed healthcare workers, telling us how they and all of their totally doubled vaxxed healthcare worker friends think we shouldn’t put “poison” in our children’s bodies, or shouldn’t mandate vaccination for healthcare workers, or they have “concerns” about fertility/periods…. absolutely transparent

@Tiredalwaystired

I am completely pro vax. My daughter is completely pro vax. She is also MASSIVELY needle phobic. She has turned up for her jab on five occasions so far and had hypnotherapy to help her but as yet she has still not got herself over the line.

I am so worried that there will be people who will be baying for her not to be treated if she gets covid but she has a genuine mental health issue which so far has prevented her getting the jab despite her being pro.

I’m sorry Tired, I’ve been where your DD is now and it’s awful. Wanting a treatment/vaccination but too terrified to take the step. I am past that now (although the old panic still rises up if needles are involved) and I won’t say “oh, she just needs to dissociate herself/pretend it’s not happening to her/realise it’s for her benefit” because that never worked for me until I was ready. I hope she reaches the point where she can overcome it enough if she wants the vaccination. I’m sure you and she will know how brilliant the staff are at the Hubs - one spotted my rising panic over my face mask in the queue, which was impressive and shows they are trained in it.

@Tiredalwaystired

I am completely pro vax. My daughter is completely pro vax. She is also MASSIVELY needle phobic. She has turned up for her jab on five occasions so far and had hypnotherapy to help her but as yet she has still not got herself over the line.

I am so worried that there will be people who will be baying for her not to be treated if she gets covid but she has a genuine mental health issue which so far has prevented her getting the jab despite her being pro.

Oh, poor thing! I really hope they can develop a safe, needle-free option, ASAP.

For what it's worth, I sincerely believe there are many people, like me, who are staunchly pro-vaccine - even pro-mandate - but would never support withholding care. Not that I think an extreme phobia isn't an authentic condition, anyway. But even for purely elective unvaccinated individuals, I don't think care should not be given if they fall ill. I'm so sorry you have this worry over your DD.

Reassuring news here - reports that vaccine is effective against Omicron - because yes, I do trust MSM more than randoms on social media. And I will not be taking the article as gospel, but it’s a good sign.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-59573037

I am 38 weeks pregnant with my first baby. As a key worker I had my first Astra Zeneca jab in March. I fell pregnant shortly after and because I was given NO advice from medical professionals and told I couldn’t have a different vaccine and to stick with AZ which has not had the rigorous testing on pregnant women/newborns, I have chosen to wait. As my first jab was in March I’m probably not protected at all and just have to be super careful. I have every intention of getting vaccinated after he’s born. It is very worrying. Pregnant women who have had one vaccine of AZ prior to falling pregnant have had no support or guidance whatsoever in this circumstance. So no, not everyone is selfish for not being vaccinated

@BRDouble

I am 38 weeks pregnant with my first baby. As a key worker I had my first Astra Zeneca jab in March. I fell pregnant shortly after and because I was given NO advice from medical professionals and told I couldn’t have a different vaccine and to stick with AZ which has not had the rigorous testing on pregnant women/newborns, I have chosen to wait. As my first jab was in March I’m probably not protected at all and just have to be super careful. I have every intention of getting vaccinated after he’s born. It is very worrying. Pregnant women who have had one vaccine of AZ prior to falling pregnant have had no support or guidance whatsoever in this circumstance. So no, not everyone is selfish for not being vaccinated

I would recommend a call or a long appointment with a consenter at your vaccination centre, with no commitment required from you to go ahead with the jab. But I think it would definitely be worth you at least having a long and frank conversation with someone on a vaccination team.

So many pregnant women on our ICU who have made the same decision as you

I totally understand that hesitancy but please give yourself every opportunity to ask every question you can.

Naturally the final decision lies with you and you only.

@Tiredalwaystired I tried this myself but then was told to contact GP and specialist etc which is what they will probably tell her to do. Looking at how far along she is now she will probably have given birth before she has a vaccine anyway because it took a couple of weeks before I got an answer as to what I should do.

Afternoon, everyone. Just here to appeal for a bit of peace and love. We've had to delete a few posts on this thread and it's becoming a bit aggressive in places. We'd really like to get it back on track and avoid having to take it down.

@BRDouble

I am 38 weeks pregnant with my first baby. As a key worker I had my first Astra Zeneca jab in March. I fell pregnant shortly after and because I was given NO advice from medical professionals and told I couldn’t have a different vaccine and to stick with AZ which has not had the rigorous testing on pregnant women/newborns, I have chosen to wait. As my first jab was in March I’m probably not protected at all and just have to be super careful. I have every intention of getting vaccinated after he’s born. It is very worrying. Pregnant women who have had one vaccine of AZ prior to falling pregnant have had no support or guidance whatsoever in this circumstance. So no, not everyone is selfish for not being vaccinated

Maybe not everyone is selfish, but everyone choosing not to get vaccinated is taking an unnecessary risk at best.

The advice after one dose of AZ during pregnancy is to have a second dose of AZ. Choosing not to follow this advice is your choice, but you’re putting yourself and your baby at untold and unnecessary risk.

www.rcog.org.uk/globalassets/documents/guidelines/2021-02-24-combined-info-sheet-and-decision-aid.pdf