90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

@Derbee Wow, how dare you tell me I’m putting my unborn baby at untold risk. I have had no guidance despite asking doctors, midwives and other professionals who just tell me the choice is yours there’s not enough data. The advice is to have one of the other two vaccinations because there have not been enough tests done but I am unable to have a different type of vaccine. Why am I going to put something in to my baby that not enough is known about? I have worked from home since before I fell pregnant, I wear a mask everywhere and am vigilant. I didn’t post to be judged, I posted to give another point of view as it seems many are putting everyone in one box. I won’t bother again

OK @Beadebaser

I'm going to try and answer your question although I'm not sure that I understand it.

You asked If you wanted to vote (because that’s the power we have) for anti restrictions and freedom of choice - who would we vote for? Please answer because it is a very big question.

I'm not really sure if you are referring to covid restrictions or to restrictions in general. But my answer is that I don't think covid should be political or politicized in any way. I think all countries, populations, politicians and scientists should work together in a respectful, transparent and careful fashion to use the emerging data and our increasing knowledge to manage the situation the best we can.

@Tiredalwaystired

I am completely pro vax. My daughter is completely pro vax. She is also MASSIVELY needle phobic. She has turned up for her jab on five occasions so far and had hypnotherapy to help her but as yet she has still not got herself over the line.

I am so worried that there will be people who will be baying for her not to be treated if she gets covid but she has a genuine mental health issue which so far has prevented her getting the jab despite her being pro.

I am severely needle phobic too, and also unvaccinated. There is meant to be a nasal spray vaccine being worked on, but I fear that it wont be available for a long time yet.

@Beadebaser

You’re expecting science to be perfect and it is not. But that doesn’t mean that you monopolise on any flaw to push an anti science agenda.

I don't expect the science to be perfect at all. And I have no time or interest in anti-science agendas (whatever they are).

I am disputing that:

pro mass vaccination of all adults and children with the current covid vaccines = pro science

being cautious or unconvinced that mass vaccination of all adults and children with the current covid vaccines is necessary and or wise = anti science

@Beachcomber Covid IS political though, and there is no getting away from that. Scientific advice is feeding into governments which is feeding into us the general population. I can understand vigorous debate around the way governments are implementing that advice, how quickly they react to it etc. But I cannot understand why people think they know better than the science itself? In the UK neither left or right wing would be anti lockdown and anti restrictions. There is only one party that would support skewed Barrington declaration type science - and they are a party I don’t want to be in power. Ever. And it’s because that party is very much in favour of ‘survival of the fittest’. Which would be the result if we allow personal freedom and minimal restrictions.

@BRDouble have you actually read the RCOG advice though? The advice is CLEAR that if you have had one dose of AZ whilst pregnant, you should have a second dose of AZ.

98.7% of pregnant women admitted to hospital are unvaccinated. Therefore it’s clear that not taking the vaccine is putting you and your baby at risk.

If you decide it’s a risk worth taking, that’s your business. But it’s still a risk. It’s a bit silly to say “how dare you tell me that taking a risk is risky”

@Beachcomber but if you look at it all in a global level, or even a European level - you can see a consensus of opinion - but governments implementing in different ways. Us in the UK being comparatively pretty lax.

And now you’re calling me silly Rude. On top of telling me I’m putting my unborn child at risk. Are you pregnant? Of course I’ve read the advice. Have you read the advice? If it was that clear cut they wouldn’t even be saying the other two are PREFERABLE for pregnant women and medical professionals wouldn’t be telling women it’s up to them and they can’t advise. I’ll be closing my account. It’s poisonous on here.

I don't really understand what you mean by :

But I cannot understand why people think they know better than the science itself

I think it is a misrepresentation of the position of people (like me) who are unconvinced that mass vaccination is the best way forward. I don't think that I "know better than the science". I think that the emerging science (on vaccine waning, virus mutation, natural immunity, breakthrough infections, herd immunity or lack of and vaccine adverse events) does not support mass vaccination as being either necessary or wise.

This is a point of view that I am willing to revise at any moment if more data / information / science comes to light or if the evolution of the virus and the pandemic requires me to.

@BRDouble

And now you’re calling me silly Rude. On top of telling me I’m putting my unborn child at risk. Are you pregnant? Of course I’ve read the advice. Have you read the advice? If it was that clear cut they wouldn’t even be saying the other two are PREFERABLE for pregnant women and medical professionals wouldn’t be telling women it’s up to them and they can’t advise. I’ll be closing my account. It’s poisonous on here.

Yes, I am pregnant. I understand that it’s a decision that people don’t take lightly, whilst pregnant. But I am double vaccinated, 25 weeks pregnant, and will take my booster as soon as I’m offered it in January.

I have decide for ME that the risk of being unvaccinated is too great. You have decided for YOU that you’d rather be unvaccinated until your baby is born. What’s your problem?

And yes, I HAVE read the RCOG advice. And linked to it, in case you hadn’t read it.

Pregnant women who have had one dose of AstraZeneca (before they became pregnant or earlier on in pregnancy), are advised to complete vaccination with a second dose of AstraZeneca

One in 10 women admitted to hospital with COVID-19 require intensive care. In the later stages of pregnancy women are at increased risk of becoming seriously unwell with COVID-19. If you have COVID-19 in pregnancy, you are twice as likely to have a stillbirth, and it is twice as likely that your baby will be born prematurely, which can affect their long term health

Perhaps my problem is you telling me as a mother I am putting my unborn child at untold risk and then patronising me calling me silly. I’m not sure who you think you are. I was sharing my position that was all. You’re extremely judgemental. Please do not respond to me

And of course I have read the advice, I have from day one. Again, patronising. And what are you not understanding, yes the advice is to have a second AZ but the other bit of advice is it is preferable
to have one of the others due to lack of tests! If there were no potential issues they wouldn’t even mention that. Thanks for your opinion

@bumbleymummy
Saying ”I am doctor!” on a medical based but NOT quantifying by saying you’re not a doctor of medicine is disingenuous at best. Having a PhD means you are clearly bright enough to know this. I am sure you are very educated in your field and should know when something is not in your remit.

That’s said, it reminded me on the Friends episode where Rachel’s dad is in hospital and Ross introduces himself as Dr and Rachel tells him words to the effect of “would you stop, doctor actually means something here”. I do love Friends!

@BRDouble

And of course I have read the advice, I have from day one. Again, patronising. And what are you not understanding, yes the advice is to have a second AZ but the other bit of advice is it is preferable to have one of the others due to lack of tests! If there were no potential issues they wouldn’t even mention that. Thanks for your opinion

Not true. Because of the reported blood clots, the AZ has not been used as extensively as Moderna and Pfizer in pregnant women. It has however been proven that blood clots (of which the risk was minima) are no more likely in pregnant women than the general population.

Reading advice, and then inserting “yeah but” is ignoring the advice. You’ve chosen to ignore the advice to get a second dose of AZ. That’s a risk.

I will reply to you if I want to, because this is a public forum. And I think your attempt to portray some vaccine refusers as making the correct choice is dangerous, especially to pregnant women who we KNOW are at risk from Covid complications, as are their babies

“science (on vaccine waning, virus mutation, natural immunity, breakthrough infections, herd immunity or lack of and vaccine adverse events) does not support mass vaccination as being”

@Beachcomber

And like I said we have boosters, which can be tweaked to combat new mutations.

I linked an article from today (see above) which indicates that the current vaccine does protect against Omicron.

Look at the success of the HPV vaccine recently that has practically eradicated a common cancer.

I just don’t know where you are getting your science from - like I keep saying. It is not the consensus of scientific opinion that mass vaccination doesn’t work. You cannot persuade people to follow emerging science which has not been robustly vetted because it could be harmful.

And because people are desperate right now, because they WANT to hear that they can get their freedom back, because no one wants masks, restrictions, mandates etc - it is causing division, confusion and negative behaviour at a time when we need cohesion.

You are unbelievable 😂 Seriously who on earth do you think you are. I’m dangerous by explaining my reasons? I’m not responsible for other people’s decisions, how dare you insinuate that! You are very judgemental and patronising, that’s not what this site is about. I have not ignored anything, I have looked at the evidence and spoken to medical professionals who have chosen not to advise anything. I am due any day now and really not interested in your aggression. You are not understanding what I am saying, obviously too difficult. Maybe you haven’t got enough going on in your life. And now you’ve bought me down to your level. Goodbye!

@Mickarooni as I’ve already pointed out, and you should have noticed if you were reading the thread, I said I am a doctor in response to someone who said only a professor/doctor would understand the data that I was asking for (rather than a link to a news article). So it was actually relevant and in context.

I do agree that Friends is brilliant though :)

@BRDouble Your better off ignoring some people on here and just get on with doing what's best for you and your child, cause obviously, it's totally unreasonable to get the advice from medical professionals. We should apparently ignore the advice we been given to please the masses. If I'd have listened to those telling me to just get it and didn't check with my specialist etc first I would have probably been dead by now. Just relax if you can and focus on you and your little one.

@wildchild554 @Tiredalwaystired Thank
you very much for your helpful responses 😊 Little man will be here soon and I’m still in denial with his imminent arrival! I will book the vaccine once he’s born. Hope everyone has a lovely Christmas

Please stop shouting at each other. This last couple of years has taken enough without pitching two pregnant women in a cat fight against each other. It's horrible to watch.
You're both entitled to your opinions on your own bodies but might it be best if you left it now?

*pitting, flippin auto correct

cause obviously, it's totally unreasonable to get the advice from medical professionals. We should apparently ignore the advice we been given to please the masses

@wildchild554 if advice from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists isn’t medical advice in your eyes, there’s not much more that can be said.

@MeredithGreyishblue

Please stop shouting at each other. This last couple of years has taken enough without pitching two pregnant women in a cat fight against each other. It's horrible to watch. You're both entitled to your opinions on your own bodies but might it be best if you left it now?

Hence why I said I’ve made the decision for ME, and she has made her decision for HER. She keeps denying the medical advice is there, and she’s CHOSEN a to ignore it because she’s not comfortable.

That’s fine, but it’s simply not true that the advice isn’t there. The ROCG has made it clear that pregnant women should have the vaccine, and if you have had one dose of AZ you should continue. It’s untrue to say there’s no advice