90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

To clarify, the NHS absorbs 44% of government tax revenue... not total spending...

@araiwa

It's like the vaccine is effective....

Did you miss the word unvaccinated?

@Campfirewood

And, honestly. I understand why countries are mandating it, they don’t want their health systems to buckle either.

I don't think that's why other countries are mandating it. We are the ones with the Sacred Cow NHS which is largely a laughing stock abroad. I lived in another European country for a long time, and the health system was far better than ours. There was also a much clearer link between paying for it and receiving the services (we seem to think that the NHS is "free" because we don't actually see the money that funds it leave our accounts).

I think the mandatory vaccination policies are far more to do with cultural norms and expectations dating back centuries than they are to do with preserving a health service.

@RonaLisa
Our health service ought to be able to cope with people becoming ill. The fact that it can't do this suggests that it is no longer fit for purpose

Hospital buildings, beds, nurses, medicine/equipment, doctors, training all costs money. It’s unrealistic to expect to have unlimited capacity.
Dozens of systems, many in wealthy countries, are struggling. Those that are not tend to be those that had far lower case numbers and people getting sick - either due to stricter restrictions, geographical isolation, cultural differences etc.

Some people have profound distrust of healthcare systems and need a lot of persuasion.

If they aren't trusting the healthcare system with the vaccine, they why are they then trusting the same system with their COVID treatment which is much more intrusive and serious?

I am NOT happy to pay more tax to fund ICU beds for shortsighted/ selfish/ idiotic / misguided people who refuse the vaccine. People who can't have the vaccine are different issue.

What’s shortsighted about this is, giving more ICU beds for this will help many other patients. Refusing to give help for this reason would impact on others.

By this stage we all know someone, or know someone who knows someone, who has died of Covid. There's no excuse for thinking 'Oh, it's just like a mild case of flu'.

I don’t. I barely know anyone who has had it. That doesn’t affect how I think about it but it’s naive to think it has directly affected everyone.

@Grumpyosaurus

I'd be happy to pay additional tax to help to fund the NHS (despite knowing someone who works in it and thinks it needs a radical overhaul due to inefficiency).

I am NOT happy to pay more tax to fund ICU beds for shortsighted/ selfish/ idiotic / misguided people who refuse the vaccine. People who can't have the vaccine are different issue.

By this stage we all know someone, or know someone who knows someone, who has died of Covid. There's no excuse for thinking 'Oh, it's just like a mild case of flu'.

I don't know anyone, or know anyone who knows anyone, who has died of Covid.

I do, however, know people who have died since March 2020 of things untreated because of Covid being the only thing that appears to matter.

I’ve heard conflicting information about who counts as “unvaccinated”. On the one had I’ve heard it claimed that “unvaccinated” means person has not received any dose of a Covid vaccine.

On the other hand I’ve also heard it claimed that “unvaccinated” means person who has not received both doses PLUS a 14 day period passing after the second dose. (ie because the term fully vaccinated has come to be understood as both doses + 15 days for vaccine to reach full strength). So according to this second claim, somebody who enters hospital/ICU one week after a second dose would be counted as “unvaccinated”.

Can anyone shed light on this?

@Neron

That is the issue though! No one gave a toss about the NHS before. No one was asking questions about the demographic of people taking up beds, or the lack of staff. People need to stop turning on one another and look at the biggest threat - the government.

But we are where we are. Even if we had a complete change of government policy tomorrow we would still have the same problem over the coming months and years.

Lack of ICU beds has always been a problem - my DH’s surgery was cancelled years ago because a stabbing victim was admitted to his ICU bed, but surgery happened 4 days later. Now we have not the odd emergency admitted for a few days, we have Covid patients blocking ICU beds for weeks. And those patients are largely unvaccinated.

This could be addressed now by the armchair FB virologists with their “I know my own body and my immune system is strong” bollocks getting their vaccines.

Would these people also refuse the novel monoclonal antibodies used for treating severe Covid?

What happened to the special nightingale hospitals that were going to treat the covid patients so they dont clog up ITU?

@HangingDitch

You could ask why people do any number of things.

Why do people drink that much alcohol they vomit in the street and need to have their stomach pumped?

Why do people do risky, needless activities like the black run at skiing or skydiving?

Why do people eat crap food when they know for a fact it could make them ill?

As far as I’m concerned, unless someone has a medical reason not to have the vaccine they’re a bit a daft. However, the reason the NHS is creaking is far wider than a few people not getting jabbed.

I agree, the NHS is not fit for purpose and it hasn't been for many many years.

If they aren't trusting the healthcare system with the vaccine, they why are they then trusting the same system with their COVID treatment which is much more intrusive and serious?

They often aren’t trusting of that either. Waiting too long to seek help, only being taken in when they are so ill they don’t have the capability to refuse treatment.

They often aren’t trusting of that either. Waiting too long to seek help, only being taken in when they are so ill they don’t have the capability to refuse treatment.

Maybe. But I bet they are happy to take antibiotics and to have their blood pressure and diabetes meds and checks and chemo and surgeries.

It's funny how distrust only manifests when the vaccine is concerned.

We're a fat country who can't be arsed to exercise and drink far too much. This is just another example of people not taking responsibility for their own health and adding to the load, only this time it's ICU that's getting hit.

I also assume many of the needle phobic non vaccinated accept needles when they are in hospital having life saving treatment

@Neron

That is the issue though! No one gave a toss about the NHS before. No one was asking questions about the demographic of people taking up beds, or the lack of staff. People need to stop turning on one another and look at the biggest threat - the government.

Of course people have "given a toss" about the NHS. It's been up in the top three priority policies for most governments or shadow governments for the past 25 years. I can't think of an election campaign which hasn't riffed about the state of the NHS.

The NHS is certainly underfunded and poorly managed. No one is seriously doubting that.

But the refusal of a large section of the population to get themselves vaccinated is massively contributing to an underlying problem there. It's not an either/or scenario.

A lot of the rhetoric from antivaxx/vaccine hesitant people is now shifting to "its all because the NHS is underfunded". It's a specious narrative. If you really are concerned about capacity in the NHS, why wouldn't you do everything your power to support NHS workers to free up their time to focus on people with critical needs, rather than engaging in whataboutery about your "right" not to have the vaccine.

@RonaLisa I know four people who know someone who has died of Covid, plus friends of DC who have relatives who have died of Covid. Actually,no, I lie - I know five people. Someone I was at school with lost his mother.

And I also know (knew) someone whose cancer went undiagnosed for three months because he couldn't get a face to face GP appointment due to Covid restrictions. He died two months after he was finally seen in person.

Some people have profound distrust of healthcare systems and need a lot of persuasion

The NHS is overstretched enough as it is, who do you suggest has the time to mollycoddle these anti-vaxxers to persuade them they need to have the vaccine?

With lots of sanctimonious sound bites from the nurses and doctors lowering themselves to treat them who clearly feel they are going above and beyond.

What a vile thing to say.

Maybe. But I bet they are happy to take antibiotics and to have their blood pressure and diabetes meds and checks and chemo and surgeries.

No. Often this group of people will actively avoid seeking any kind of treatment.

who do you suggest has the time to mollycoddle these anti-vaxxers to persuade them they need to have the vaccine?

These aren’t “anti-vaxxers” they are people who are constantly let down by healthcare services and treated quite badly and have been for a very long time.

Your ignorance of it and attitude to it is a large part of the reason they don’t trust the service.

‘help the NHS‘

I wish people wouldn’t say this, it’s your fellow man you’re helping! Someone’s Parent, child, sibling, partner. The NHS and it’s staff will serve whoever presents, it’s actual people who are suffering

With lots of sanctimonious sound bites from the nurses and doctors lowering themselves to treat them who clearly feel they are going above and beyond.

If you were putting yourself and your family's life at risk every day in appallingly stressful conditions to treat people who lack the critical thinking ability to see that getting vaccinated helps save many lives, I think you might be entitled to be a bit sanctimonious.

If I were working in the NHS at the moment and required to treat these fools sanctimoniousness would be the mildest of my emotions towards these people.

Not the ones I know.

Young pregnant women who don't want the vaccines, COVID and flu and whooping cough, and who don't want the MMR for their children, but who are happy to have a cesarian and any other form of treatment. It's just the vaccines they don't trust.

@BoredZelda

If they aren't trusting the healthcare system with the vaccine, they why are they then trusting the same system with their COVID treatment which is much more intrusive and serious?

They often aren’t trusting of that either. Waiting too long to seek help, only being taken in when they are so ill they don’t have the capability to refuse treatment.

Only with the vaccine. There's absolutely no evidence that they're unwilling to accept other treatments or to approach their doctors for other reasons.