90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

I’ll bite soon as I’m sick of the judgement of other’s choices.

No judgment here, user. You’re one of those people who can’t be vaccinated. The only people we’re angry with are the anti-vaxxers. You clearly aren’t one of those.

Cancer sufferers have been absolutely the collateral damage in the Pandemic. First time around it was a tragedy, but now, with unvaccinated filling hospitals its a preventable tragedy.

I'm not sure what the answer is - Europe is going one way with vaccine passports etc. But we can't keep overwhelming the NHS when we have a good vaccine that reduces hospitalisation. The more the NHS is overwhelmed, and patients suffer the more the Tories will push privatisation. Looking at lockdown, what we've all suffered, I just don't get the anti vaxxers. I suppose the only answer is vaccine passports...because cancer sufferers should die because of other peoples stupidity.

@Iggly

I think a fair few may be pregnant women, who’s been lightly let down by this government when it comes to the vaccine. They were first told not to get the vaccine as it wasn’t safe. That message later changed but was not communicated clearly, so I’m not surprised pregnant women then turned it down or wanted to wait until their child was born.

I suspect that’s why the government won’t look at mandating vaccines as they’ve cocked up.

They were never told it wasn't safe!

Initially there was not enough data from the vaccine trials to reliably advise on its safety for pregnant women and so the advice was to wait until further results came through.

That's what was communicated and it was very, very clear to anyone who doesn't get their news from tiktok and Facebook.

At no point did the medical and scientific community, or government, say it wasn't safe for pregnant women.

They simply said "wait".

My dh is waiting for surgery that needs an icu bed. If there’s no bed available that day his surgery will be cancelled.

He can’t have his heart op until the first op is done and healed. Our lives are on hold and he’s being tortured by his heart condition which causes him a lot of distress. I’m watching him deteriorate and I can’t do anything to help.

We were at the hospital doing his operations last week and his dr says icu is full of people in their 30’s who didn’t have the vaccine.

Do we know how many are overweight or obese, that is always kept quiet

@Maskless

Imagine how much capacity we'd have in the NHS if the billions of pounds - and yes, I do mean billions, possibly tens of billions - of OUR money that the Govt has wasted on all the failed and pointless measures had instead been invested into the NHS and in recruiting and retaining staff?

Billions were wasted on those stupid Nightingale hospitals that never treated a single patient! Track and trace. Furlough. Billions of pounds out of our pockets, totally wasted, down the drain.

I remember retired doctors and nurses having their offer to return to work ignored or rejected.

But people prefer instead to blame those who are not triple jabbed!

Not either/or, both. The Nightingale hospital is not stopping any cancer treatments now. I also blame the Government. But unvaccinated people are having the biggest impact that can actually influence the situation right now.

@Userevermore

Do we know how many are overweight or obese, that is always kept quiet

Why does it matter? Chance are if they were vaccinated they wouldn't be in icu whether they are overweight or not?

@Neron

That is the issue though! No one gave a toss about the NHS before. No one was asking questions about the demographic of people taking up beds, or the lack of staff. People need to stop turning on one another and look at the biggest threat - the government.

I think you’ll find they did and were….

@ivykaty44

I’d like to ask unvaccinated people, who have chosen not to have the vaccination how they’d feel about taking up an ICU bed and potentially preventing 10 lifesaving operations? Causing others to potential death or worsening outcomes

How do they justify this

They don't care

"It's not funding that has the NHS on its knees, it's incompetence. Maybe re open the nightingale hospitals with skeleton staff for the idiots who can only think in terms of themselves, treat them but not at the expense of those who have had the vaccine."

This. Maybe unvaccinated HCPs can work in the Nightingales treating unvaccinated patients and see how that works out.

We have been far to tolerant of those who won't have the vaccine..(won't as opposed to can't)

It is fine to refuse to put anything into your body if it doesn't impact others..
but when countless emergency operations are being delayed with catastrophic effects, it is either epic selfishness or immense stupidity.

It is also immensely selfish to cite lack of investment in the NHS as we are in this pandemic NOW and each and every one of us should be doing all we can to either help or at least stay out of hospital.

Have the jab, take some responsibility.

You cannot fund your way out of this.

We'll need to double and triple the ICU capacity, so anti vaxxers are accommodated.

@Neron

That is the issue though! No one gave a toss about the NHS before. No one was asking questions about the demographic of people taking up beds, or the lack of staff. People need to stop turning on one another and look at the biggest threat - the government.

What are you on about? Of course people cared about the NHS being underfunded. I certainly did. Which is why I didn't vote for this Government. Or the previous one. Along with millions of others. Did you?

But this is trying to deflect from the issue raised by the OP. The current crisis is made so much worse by unvaccinated Covid patients. FACT.

@SofiaMichelle "They were never told it wasn't safe!

Initially there was not enough data from the vaccine trials to reliably advise on its safety for pregnant women and so the advice was to wait until further results came through.

That's what was communicated and it was very, very clear to anyone who doesn't get their news from tiktok and Facebook.

At no point did the medical and scientific community, or government, say it wasn't safe for pregnant women.

They simply said "wait"."

I beg to differ - if you speak to women who've been pregnant over the last few months many have been told repeatedly by midwives, receptionists, GPs, etc. that they should wait and get the vaccine after giving birth. Many have encountered resistance when trying to book and actually get a vaccine. Been turned away from vaccine centres because "it's not safe". This is the point. Official published advice may have said one thing but the messaging reaching pregnant women has been a disaster.

I agree op.
The unvaccinated are going to break the NHS. If everyone was vaccinated we wouldn’t be in this mess right now. I don’t get it either, why wouldn’t you want to be part of the solution? It really saddens me.

And, honestly. I understand why countries are mandating it, they don’t want their health systems to buckle either.

@Dragongirl10

We have been far to tolerant of those who won't have the vaccine..(won't as opposed to can't)

It is fine to refuse to put anything into your body if it doesn't impact others..
but when countless emergency operations are being delayed with catastrophic effects, it is either epic selfishness or immense stupidity.

It is also immensely selfish to cite lack of investment in the NHS as we are in this pandemic NOW and each and every one of us should be doing all we can to either help or at least stay out of hospital.

Have the jab, take some responsibility.

This! Let’s stop tolerating this selfishness and stupidity.

[quote Fallagain]@Bigballer covid patients who are icu tend yo be there for a very long time before they either start or recover or die where as a patient who is post surgery may only be there for a couple of nights.[/quote]
Exactly. In March 2020 my husband's colleague was in an induced coma and on a ventilator for weeks and in hospital for months. He had covid and thankfully recovered enough to leave hospital.

Where are the figures for how many non vaxxed flu patients there are each year taking up icu beds? Where are the figures for how many normal beds are taken up by people well enough to be discharged but with no place for them to go due to lack of staff at care homes and lack of social care placement schemes? I saw a thread a few weeks back where a ward manager stated that 2/3 of some wards were filled with people waiting to go home or into some other type of care.
I just think this vilification of the relatively very few non vaccinated adults is wrong and deflects nicely from the real issue, which is the complete lack of proper investment and continued funding for the health and social care system. In this instance it is necessary to step back a bit and look at the wider picture and not just “fight the fire”.

[quote Lostinacloud]@WoodyGd exactly! The beds are available but not the staff. That’s not due to unvaccinated patients, that’s due to lack of investment.
I think it’s high time we took the spotlight and main responsibility off of each other to try and contain an airborne microscopic virus and focused it back on the government who have the job of properly allocating our taxes.[/quote]
@Lostinacloud, how much more government spending should be allocated to the NHS? It already absorbs 44% according to a breakdown I read last week.

Sorry, but the NHS is not fit for purpose and until the population accepts that they need to chip in to the cost of healthcare via a model akin to that used in France or Germany or Australia, there won't be progress.

@Bigballer

Why would each Covid patient be denying 10 other people a bed? That just doesn't make sense. And the reason the NHS is on its knees is because of all the restrictions, countless people have died of other things because the government's and NHS priority was Covid. About time they just get on with things and not worry about Covid.

Agree with this.

Our health service ought to be able to cope with people becoming ill. The fact that it can't do this suggests that it is no longer fit for purpose. It was fine when it was conceived - but it hasn't changed to accommodate the way the population has changed. Money is not the answer: you could give the NHS billions, and it would still be unable to treat people who need to be treated.

People not being vaccinated are not the essential problem (and I'm doubly vaccinated, so have no anti-vaxx axe to grind - but I do believe that people have the right to choose).

I'd be happy to pay additional tax to help to fund the NHS (despite knowing someone who works in it and thinks it needs a radical overhaul due to inefficiency).

I am NOT happy to pay more tax to fund ICU beds for shortsighted/ selfish/ idiotic / misguided people who refuse the vaccine. People who can't have the vaccine are different issue.

By this stage we all know someone, or know someone who knows someone, who has died of Covid. There's no excuse for thinking 'Oh, it's just like a mild case of flu'.

Some people have profound distrust of healthcare systems and need a lot of persuasion.

Yes, this point isn’t made nearly enough. There is a societal issue that is always ignored when it comes to this. And given the history, who can blame them.

Frankly I deem anyone who has been sucked in by that rhetoric to be the ones lacking critical thinking.

Except that your list missed the most glaringly obvious (to many) point that was made above. Which means largely your views have been based on misinformation, media hype, social media “facts”. This is where your lack of critical thinking is exposed.

I’ve heard conflicting information about who counts as “unvaccinated”. On the one had I’ve heard it claimed that “unvaccinated” means person has not received any dose of a Covid vaccine.
On the other hand I’ve also heard it claimed that “unvaccinated” means person who has not received both doses PLUS a 14 day period passing after the second dose. (ie because the term fully vaccinated has come to be understood as both doses + 15 days for vaccine to reach full strength). So according to this second claim, somebody who enters hospital/ICU one week after a second dose would be counted as “unvaccinated”. Can anyone shed light?

It’s not old data but the reports imply that the unvaccinated are taking up large numbers of icu beds when it really refers to a very small element of hospital care

.,,,

Between July and November, NHS England said that 150 patients were referred for extracorporeal membrane oxygenation, or Ecmo, where blood is cycled through an artificial lung machine before returning it to the body. Of these patients, only 6 per cent had been fully vaccinated.