Germany bans unvaccinated from shops and pubs.

[Ratched]

We really are going to end up with a two tier society. It's actually quite worrying.

I am NOT anti vaxx, just concerned at how we are sleep walking into giving away our hard won freedoms.

Is hard one freedoms and Germany an oxymoron ?

Hard won , sorry

They should at minimum give you a very delayed schedule, @lineandsinker ! That sounds horrible, you poor thing. I have a lot of heart problems and I know that racing feeling all too well. While I'm obviously pro vax, I can totally see why you'd feel hesitant and I don't think you should be rushed into it or anything. Support and taking it slowly is a much, much better approach.

"What is happening for those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons?"

I expect there will be exemptions for those who cannot be vaccinated since it will be a very small number of people who I would guess won't be frequenting bars much anyway.

People who are unvaccinated are now the vulnerable to serious illness and hospitalisation I honestly don't understand why somebody would choose to not be vaccinated. I don't think this is a "terrible " idea good for Germany. I think unvaccinated people who can't for medical reasons should be able to get a certificate, the I dontwanttoos should just take the consequences.

@innocenta

If you cared, you wouldn't be implying that they shouldn't have a choice in the matter about repeating the medical intervention that triggered it.

However, it becomes much more complex when someone wants to make an objectively bad choice that affects others. What if you were HIV+ and wanted to not have any treatment? If you infected future partners, you'd face legal sanctions.

But you can choose not to have treatment for HIV? And if you unintentionally infected somebody else - not sure how that would happen but I suppose if you were in an accident and your blood somehow entered their system - I don't think you would face any legal sanctions for that? Totally different if you knowingly do something that is likely to infect someone else.

Unvaccinated people do not automatically have COVID. I'd say the parallel to your HIV situation would be someone knowingly having COVID and mixing in close contact with others, rather than just being unvaccinated.

There should at least be another option (ie. to present a negative test from the last 24hrs) for those who don't wish to be vaccinated.

[quote Smokeyfish]Also from the government website:

Warning healthcare workers how to spot myocarditis and pericarditis following Covid 19 vaccinations.

anyone troubled by this?

www.gov.uk/government/publications/myocarditis-and-pericarditis-after-covid-19-vaccination/myocarditis-and-pericarditis-after-covid-19-vaccination-guidance-for-healthcare-professionals[/quote]
Why would anyone be concerned by guidance on how to deal with a rare but known side effect? If you know the side effect exists, which I did as it’s been widely reported, guidance on how to deal with it is reassuring, not concerning

I’m totally anti mandatory vaccines as I said, but this is link does not worry me at all.

Is Covid really worthy of all this drama?

[quote Battenburg77]@innocenta

If you cared, you wouldn't be implying that they shouldn't have a choice in the matter about repeating the medical intervention that triggered it.[/quote]
If you actually cared about any disabled people at all and weren't just an antivaxxer trying to hide it under the mantle of oHhH sOoO wOrRiEd, you wouldn't write ableist replies to someone who is actually substantially disabled and will be for the rest of her life.

You don't understand medical autonomy because it's not a real thing to you. It's just an abstract argument that you can get little antivaxxer jollies from.

That's not the reality for disabled people.

@Innocenta

But what is the supposed rationale? *@ItsALife* How are they justifying you not having it? You've said you don't fit into any of the previously noted groups.

Because I have a combination of conditions including history of anaphylaxis to multiple medical things (nothing in the vaccine) and a heart condition and nobody knows how I’m going to react to the vaccine nor do they want to have to administer epi if I do react due to my heart. Everyone says I probably won’t, but nobody will take that risk even though I’ve said I’ll sign something to say I know the risks. That list isn’t definitive, they can turn you away for any reason after the assess your case.

Sorry haven't read the full thread.

But you don't have the full story here at all. I live in Germany. We've had "3G" ruling for months (must prove vaccinated, recovered, or recent tested status) for things like indoor dining, soft play, sports centres, hairdressers.

All that's changed is that they have changed some of these to "2G" now which is vaccinated or recovered - no testing exception, except for people exempt from vax (including too young/recently pregnant). That's dine-in restaurants, pubs, venues, hairdressers etc. This is the "Unvaccinated ban" that the newspapers like to talk about.

They have also increased the 3G regulation to also cover non-essential shops. There's no suggestion that essential shops will ever need any kind of requirement for entry. And even non-essential shops are free to access for anyone with a recent LFT.

Public transport is changing to 3G. I don't really agree with this but it's not going to 2G.

Some venues will change to 2G+ which means you need to be vaccinated, recovered or exempt WITH recent test (for everyone). This is mostly places like hospitals and care homes.

How odd, I also have a history of anaphylaxis and allergy to multiple medical things, plus a heart condition. Yet have had two AZ and a booster! I feel quite annoyed on your behalf, @ItsALife , as you are presumably at somewhat increased risk because of your heart. Sounds like they've really dropped the ball. Don't give up! Keep pushing them - you deserve to be as safe as you can be.

@Mrsjayy

People who are unvaccinated are now the vulnerable to serious illness and hospitalisation I honestly don't understand why somebody would choose to not be vaccinated. I don't think this is a "terrible " idea good for Germany. I think unvaccinated people who can't for medical reasons should be able to get a certificate, the I dontwanttoos should just take the consequences.

Oh dear, the lack of critical thinking is quite worrying.

But perhaps then there are many people who feel comfortable in a world where, through no merit of their own at all, they are given justification for feeling better than a demonised 'Other' (the unvaccinated). This is religious-style, Medieval prejudice, right there. In 2021 Britain. Way to go.

@NearlyAlwaysInsane Quite the contrary, it's called science. If you like to dwell in the past as this post suggests, you may prefer the term Natural Philosophy.

I’m surprised how strongly people feel about this. I’ve just been in France where you need your covid certificate everywhere. It just seems sensible to me. Sure, you have the right not to have the injection but I don’t see you have the right to contribute to poorer public health. I think the smoking comparison is a good one. Yes, it’s up to you, but you need to operate to facilitate safety for other people.

Of course people with the vaccine can get and pass on Covid but they’re much less likely to, so strongly incentivising people to have the vaccine massively reduces spread.

Thanks @BertieBotts, that is interesting. Why are they not allowing testing?

@Innocenta

How odd, I also have a history of anaphylaxis and allergy to multiple medical things, plus a heart condition. Yet have had two AZ and a booster! I feel quite annoyed on your behalf, *@ItsALife* , as you are presumably at somewhat increased risk because of your heart. Sounds like they've really dropped the ball. Don't give up! Keep pushing them - you deserve to be as safe as you can be.

It’s been a nightmare- I received shielding letters all the way through the lockdown and I was invited to have my jab in the first wave and I thought I was going to have some freedom back and it’s been an absolute nightmare from then on. I had a procedure just before COVID and went into anaphylactic shock during it and woke up on resus and I think they’ve just decided that I’m going to react and that’s that. Everyone has agreed I probably won’t react but nobody is willing to say yeah okay let’s do this!

But also because everyone is in agreement I should have the jab (CEV) and probably won’t have an allergic reaction I can’t get a letter from anyone saying I’m exempt! I’m actually quite terrified of what will happen to me if they bring tougher restrictions over here.

@ItsALife thank you and I could have looked that up so I apologise.
It's a minefield... I have a life limiting illness and am on number 4 in March (second booster)
Children were leant on to be double vaccinated because of my health and have autism- two agreed one refused.
I still got it.
I was interested as in my case (also immunocompromised) they booked me in and asked two or three questions. Only one they queried was the fact I was on epixiban.
I am just not sure why they refused you or to be honest how it came up.

@RoseAndRose

What is happening for those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons?

It will be interesting to see how this question is answered and plays out. Depending on how this is handled, it will show the true intentions of such a mandate.

If this is truly a hardline stance for the good of public health, there will be no exceptions. Even for those medically unable to be vaccinated, but more importantly no exception for children.

If however there are exceptions, then these measures have a largely punitive nature.

I really don’t get all this business about giving up our freedoms. We gave up our freedom to drive around without a seatbelt and to smoke indoors and to buy cereal not fortified with folate - all for public health reasons. I 100% think that people are entitled to choose whether or not to have the vaccine but when your “rights” affect other people then a balance has to be struck - so choose not to have the vaccine by all means but then you have to accept there are certain things you can’t do so as not to put other people at risk.

"If however there are exceptions, then these measures have a largely punitive nature."

Exceptions will be because they are making reasonable adjustments for those that cannot have it. Not wanting the vaccine doesn't require reasonable adjustment considerations.