Germany bans unvaccinated from shops and pubs.

[Ratched]

We really are going to end up with a two tier society. It's actually quite worrying.

I am NOT anti vaxx, just concerned at how we are sleep walking into giving away our hard won freedoms.

What a disaster this would be. Segregation of society on medical grounds. What next - limitations on those with HIV or hepatitis?
I.can understand the medical autonomy and right to choose arguments (although I personally don't agree), but this is clearly a nonsense. I can't catch your HIV or hepatitis by sitting next to you on a bus.

@XenoBitch

This is terrifying, and I can't believe anyone would be happy with this. I really hope (and the teeny optimist in me says) it wont come to the UK. This will just push me over the edge.

I've always wanted to be a suffragette of some sort.

This would push me over the edge too XenoBitch - I know which way I'd be falling though.

PP on this thread do not understand the reality of 'medical autonomy' in the UK. Many medical choices are not ultimately your own - you can't just decide you want this or that treatment. You can't decide that you want an ITU bed (even if you would benefit from one). It just isn't how British medicine works. Of course we have an important role to play in making decisions about our care, but the reality is most people are not medically educated enough to decide most things. The majority of decisions are already being made for you.

But you can catch Covid from a vaccinated person.
Or does Covid now have a list of all the people who have been vaccinated

Isn't state control over body autonomy something that the conspiracy people been laughed at for?

Wonder what countries doing this will do when there is still corona in the general population.

@fakereview

The fact that the German government feels it has to do this means that it has lost the argument. It needs to try much much harder before it goes down the coercion route.

Are the vaccines that all (future) UK doctors have before even starting medical school 'coercion'? Have you devoted much time to protesting them? Should someone have the right to work as a doctor without having their 'autonomy' breached?

These vaccinations have been required for many years, just fyi.

@Innocenta

PP on this thread do not understand the reality of 'medical autonomy' in the UK. Many medical choices are not ultimately your own - you can't just decide you want this or that treatment. You can't decide that you want an ITU bed (even if you would benefit from one). It just isn't how British medicine works. Of course we have an important role to play in making decisions about our care, but the reality is most people are not medically educated enough to decide most things. The majority of decisions are already being made for you.

That’s slightly different, that’s preventing you having something you want which isn’t the same as forcing you to do something you don’t. The GP can refuse to prescribe me something, but they can’t go the other way and make me take something.

@Innocenta

I've spoken to someone in Aus who got pericarditis from their first dose and instead of being exempt from the second has been advised to go for AZ instead of another Pfizer.

There are also people who have developed issues like tinitus (see another thread on this board from today) from their first round of vaccines but are compelled to take the booster anyway due to employment mandates.

It's not cut and dry at all

Its non essential retail, not all shops the headlines make it look worse than it is

@fakereview

Are doctors happy to give them out over there now these rules are in place? I currently cannot get vaxxed for medical reasons (have tried multiple times and they all say nope) but nobody will write me an exemption letter

but presumably they've given you something in writing that says that - I don't mean a formal letter but something documenting that you have been turned away? After all, they may need that evidence too to say why they told you that you could not be vaccinated. I'd ask again.

Nope nothing. I’ve asked my GP, consultant, the vaccine clinic at the local hospital where I was told I was supposed to be able to have it who then turned me away and had a meeting with the medical officer regarding me and nobody is willing to put it in writing.

I know I’m not the only person either who’s struggling with getting something in writing either.

@Innocenta

PP on this thread do not understand the reality of 'medical autonomy' in the UK. Many medical choices are not ultimately your own - you can't just decide you want this or that treatment. You can't decide that you want an ITU bed (even if you would benefit from one). It just isn't how British medicine works. Of course we have an important role to play in making decisions about our care, but the reality is most people are not medically educated enough to decide most things. The majority of decisions are already being made for you.

Such as what? Genuinely curious

@SickAndTiredAgain If you're under section, they can. I have many friends who have had NG feeds administered under section, IM meds, etc.

My point is only that medical autonomy is always limited and abridged in various ways. It's always a negotiated aspect of our care. The purist concept of medical autonomy touted in threads like this is not the reality of how decision making happens. Whether it's withholding certain care, allocating scarce resources, forcing care on people without capacity... We don't have absolute autonomy, as claimed.

@LittlestLightOnTheXmasTree

Ds has an app on his phone which shows he's vaccinated, he shows that before entering stores etc

Whereabouts in Berlin is he? As this is not my experience AT ALL. I've once had to show my vaccine pass and ID card and that was in a café yesterday.

Everyone wears masks it's true, because that is what a reasonable society does. Somehow Germany doesn't seem to have all the exemptions that the UK has. Maybe the UK is more of a mess (with other health issues) than people realise?

Good!

So upsetting that there are so many people who think this is OK.

We are choosing a very murky path, people.

When you too are classed as unvaccinated because you've not had your 10th/15th booster - and you choose not to take that extra one ... how will you feel about vaccine mandates then? Or are you prepared to go on and on indefinitely?

@Doodledeedum You can't decide you want to be assessed for a particular physical or mental health condition just because you want it, or think you have it. You can't have genetic screening or testing without an objective indication. You can't be prescribed medication because you think it might help - goes double if it's red listed!

Sorry if that's still too general, I can give specific examples but don't want to derail.

@Innocenta

PP on this thread do not understand the reality of 'medical autonomy' in the UK. Many medical choices are not ultimately your own - you can't just decide you want this or that treatment. You can't decide that you want an ITU bed (even if you would benefit from one). It just isn't how British medicine works. Of course we have an important role to play in making decisions about our care, but the reality is most people are not medically educated enough to decide most things. The majority of decisions are already being made for you.

This is spot on.

[quote Innocenta]@Doodledeedum You can't decide you want to be assessed for a particular physical or mental health condition just because you want it, or think you have it. You can't have genetic screening or testing without an objective indication. You can't be prescribed medication because you think it might help - goes double if it's red listed!

Sorry if that's still too general, I can give specific examples but don't want to derail. [/quote]
Thank you. That's insightful but these are all things I might request. If someone doesn't want something rather than demanding it/requesting it and refused, this is different though no?

Personally I think if you choose not to be vaccinated this is totally fine, but only you personally should have a cost associated with this and not the rest of society.

Vaccinations are proven to slow the spread. Not allowing the unvaccinated to mingle with society protects everyone else to a higher degree. The unvaccinated have a choice, If they choose to remain unvaccinated, only they pay the price. No one else. That price is a restriction on how they mingle with others.

I’m ok with that,

This is not a specific to anyone question but I just wondered what exactly makes you exempt? Unable to be vaccinated?

[quote Battenburg77]@Innocenta

I've spoken to someone in Aus who got pericarditis from their first dose and instead of being exempt from the second has been advised to go for AZ instead of another Pfizer.

There are also people who have developed issues like tinitus (see another thread on this board from today) from their first round of vaccines but are compelled to take the booster anyway due to employment mandates.

It's not cut and dry at all[/quote]
I think you are expecting me to read this and feel that none of these people should be having additional vaccines, but that's not what I take from it. If person 1 (pericarditis) was recommended by doctors to switch to AZ, then I'm not sure why we are even discussing them. A switch is obviously a good idea! But Covid causes more heart problems than any of the vaccines... Immunity is pretty important for them if they have a cardiac vulnerability.

Yes, I would tend to agree the people with tinnitus should get boosters in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

Many medical choices are not ultimately your own - you can't just decide you want this or that treatment

yes but at the moment, if I am not sectioned, I can choose what goes into me. Unless I am scraped off a road and am unconscious, I have my options explained to me and may well be pushed towards a certain choice, but I still have a choice.

@Stomacharmeleon

This is not a specific to anyone question but I just wondered what exactly makes you exempt? Unable to be vaccinated?

Yes I assume if for example you have multiple allergies you would not be able to be safely given the vaccine.

At least with covid there is a choice of vaccines so there may be some that are safe for some people but others that are not, although the individual does not have a choice about which they get. I'd quite like AZ for my booster as I know I didn't react badly to it first time round, but I don't get a choice.

@fakereview

Many medical choices are not ultimately your own - you can't just decide you want this or that treatment

yes but at the moment, if I am not sectioned, I can choose what goes into me. Unless I am scraped off a road and am unconscious, I have my options explained to me and may well be pushed towards a certain choice, but I still have a choice.

If you have capacity you can make an objectively bad choice if it affects only you - such as a Jehovah's Witness refusing blood products.

However, it becomes much more complex when someone wants to make an objectively bad choice that affects others. What if you were HIV+ and wanted to not have any treatment? If you infected future partners, you'd face legal sanctions.

@Stomacharmeleon

This is not a specific to anyone question but I just wondered what exactly makes you exempt? Unable to be vaccinated?

We're walking into a different universe. One we've been lucky enough to never have to experience before. Our kids will have to deal with this and these here (possibly mothers, fathers and carers) cheered this on.

There will be no exemptions, I guess. And this is going to happen. It's only a matter of time.